Template talk:grc-adecl-3rd-ες-prx

-ώδης -ῶδες

Hello! You must have noticed my confusion about δηλητηριώδης. The problem is with the genitive plural. Well, the template is correct and my grammar textbook says that the adjectives in -ώδης, -ῶδες follow the paradigm of πλήρης which has a genitive πλήρων. However, all the examples I was able to find in TLG have -ωδῶν (εὐωδῶν, δυσωδῶν, δηλητηριωδῶν) and this is definitely the modern Greek inflection too. Any ideas? --flyax 21:23, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm away from all my materials right now, but I'll try and look into it when I get a chance. But yes, we would definitely follow texts over grammars. ;-) In any case, if those forms exist, the template should note them, even if the form which it currently notes also exists. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 01:49, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok, so Smyth has a couple of notes on this pattern, but nothing which I seem to be directly relevant to our discussion. Apparently compound adjectives which aren't accented on the last syllable have a recessive accent, so φιλάληθες (philálēthes), except for words ending in -ῶδες, -ῶλες, -ῶρες, and -ῆρες, so εὐῶδες (euôdes). However, if you think about it in terms of this being a contracted version of something, You can't have δηλητηριώδων (dēlētēriṓdōn) because you can't have δηλητηριώδεων (dēlētēriṓdeōn), which is what this would be from. However, in the section about nouns which operate under the same rules (mostly proper nouns), Smyth notes that the genitive plural and gen/dat dual get an accent on the penultimate syllable irregularly, by analogy with the other forms. So, if I had to guess, I would say that forms with the aforementioned endings which don't have the recessive accent on the neuter nom sing probably also don't get the recessive accent on the gen plural. I'm not quite sure why, but there you have it. So, I suppose the template keep the gen plural accent on the penultimate, and we could change it for -ῶδες, -ῶλες, -ῶρες,, or we could move it to the ultimate, and change it manually for the rest. In any case, we'll have this discussion here with the instructions, so folks using this template will (hopefully) see it and check the gen plural. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 06:23, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your research. Here are some examples, which could be also used in future entries. What strikes me, though, is that I couldn't find any genitive plural in classical period texts. The more ancient reference seems to be that from Aristotle. I don't know what to think. Is this genitive a post classical inflection? --flyax 10:30, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

At last, I've found some examples in -ώδων! See below at πιμελώδης and νεοδαμώδης, the latter being the only one to be found in a classical period text. So, it seems that both forms exist, often in the same writer. Galenos has εὐωδῶν and ἐλκώδων; Thucydides has νεοδαμώδων and νεοδαμωδῶν. So, both forms should be included in a special template for these adjectives. --flyax 10:41, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Examples

• Diodorus Siculus Hist 1.62.4.5: θυμιαμάτων εὐωδῶν
• Aristoteles, De sensu et sensibilibus 444b.29-30: οὐδὲν δυσχεραίνει τῶν καθ΄ αὑτὰ δυσωδῶν τὴν ὀσμήν
• Scholia in Pindarum, O 2.175.1: ὑπὸ γὰρ μανιωδῶν τινων καὶ ἀνοήτων ἐφθονήθη
• Oribasius Med, Collectiones Medicae 10.24.1: καὶ πυρετῶν ἀσωδῶν καὶ φρικωδῶν καὶ τοῦ σώματος ὅλου κοπώδους
• Galenus Med, De instrumento odoratus 2.9.3: μύρων τῶν εὐωδῶν ἤ τινος ἄλλου σφοδρὰν ὀσμὴν ἔχοντος

but ...

• Galenus Med, De purgantium medicamentorum facultate 11.326: ἐξανθημάτων αὐτῷ κατὰ πολλὰ μόρια τοῦ σώματος ἐξαίφνης γενομένων ἑλκώδων τε καὶ κακοχρόων

πιμελώδης

• Plutarchus, De liberis educandis, 8.D.12 ἰσχνὸς δὲ στρατιώτης πολεμικῶν ἀγώνων ἐθὰς ἀθλητῶν πιμελώδων φάλαγγας διωθεῖ

but ...

• Aristoteles, Historia Animalium, 520a.27 δ΄ ἐγκέφαλοι τῶν μὲν πιμελωδῶν λιπαροί͵ οἷον ὑός͵ τῶν δὲ στεατωδῶν αὐχμηροί

νεοδαμώδης

• Thucydides, 8.5.1: οἱ δ΄ ἦλθον ἔχοντες τῶν νεοδαμωδῶν ὡς τριακοσίους

but ...

• Thucydides, 7.19.3: Λακεδαιμόνιοι μὲν τῶν τε Εἱλώτων ἐπιλεξάμενοι τοὺς βελτίστους καὶ τῶν νεοδαμώδων͵ ξυναμφοτέρων ἐς ἑξακοσίους ὁπλίτας

(both after Oxford Classical Texts Edition)

--flyax 10:41, 27 June 2008 (UTC)