Talk:târg

Old vs. Middle Bulgarian

@Ентусиастъ:, this word should be from Old Bulgarian / Old Church Slavonic rather than Middle Bulgarian because it is a word that is found across all dialects of Romanian. Middle and modern Bulgarian words are found just in the southern dialects of Romanian.

As for the the metathesis ("ръ" --> "âr"), that is a common feature for Old Bulgarian borrowings into Romanian. Compare:

• скръбь (skrŭbĭ) (cf. modern Bulgarian скръб (skrǎb)) to *scrâb(ă) --> scârbă
• пръга (prŭga) to pârgă
• плъхъ (plŭxŭ) to pârș, etc.

Bogdan (talk) 22:29, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

@Bogdan: This word is from Middle and not Old Bulgarian because in Old Bulgarian/OCS Proto-Slavic /*ьr/ is always /rъ/. The switch between /rъ/ and /ъr/ developped in Middle Bulgarian and, as a result, is present in Modern Bulgarian. Romanian hardly metathesises any Slavic words which it borrows. A proof of that is the old name of Câmpulung which was Dlăgopole ('long field'), a borrowing from Old Bulgarian/OCS as seen by the presence of /lă/. Ентусиастъ (talk) 19:30, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

@Ентусиастъ: "Dlăgopole" was adapted in Romanian as "Dolgopol", used in parallel with the calque "Câmpulung". The form Dlăgopole was used only in official written documents (as Old Church Slavonic has been the official language in Wallachia until mid-17th century), it was not the form used in spoken Romanian.

The metatheses always happens with borrowings containing "[consonant]ръ". I was not able to find a single exception. Apart from the three I listed above, here are 10 more examples (I can list several dozens more if you want):

връста-vârstă, врътежь-vârtej, крънъ-cârn, оусръдьнъ-osârdnic, чръта-cirtă, кръчьмa-cârciumă, кръма-cârmă, скврънавъ-scârnav, Тръковъ-Târcov, връчарова-Vârciorova. Bogdan (talk) 20:16, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Illyrian

That variant is not possible phonetically. "*terg" cannot end up "târg", whereas "тръгъ" can only end up as "târg".

Ancient "erg" is expected to end up in Romanian as "erg", as in Latin extergo --> șterg, rather than *ștârg.

Also, it's not really a commonly held idea (I could find it on some forums and blogs, but not a widespread view in serious scholarship). Bogdan (talk) 19:35, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

If you're thinking that perhaps it might be that the Illyrians (or Proto-Albanians, etc) used a sound that might have interpreted by the proto-Romanians are "â" (like the Norse people adapted ъ as o, as in torg), I don't see how that's possible because of the city of Tergeste and treg both have "e". Additionally, "â" is a relatively late sound in Romanian. Bogdan (talk) 19:44, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm afraid you're going to spend a lot of time reverting these changes Bogdan. People are always going to contradict this etymology. Maybe you should consider keeping it and provide the reasons above just to show that we have considered it and have arguments against it. Robbie SWE (talk) 19:58, 1 April 2022 (UTC)