Talk:sesaté

sesaté

Discussion moved from User talk:KevinUp.

Do you know what the origin of the element se- in this word is? ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 09:08, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

@Lingo Bingo Dingo: I think the element se- may be derived from a regional dialect, perhaps a form of Bazaar Malay. A google search of "sesate Indonesia" reveals that the word exists in the Balinese language and is a symbolic weapon used in some form of ritual represented by a type of food. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] KevinUp (talk) 21:02, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Interestingly, although Afrikaans sosatie is currently listed as a descendant of Dutch sesaté, the Wikipedia article for sosatie suggests that sosatie is of Cape Malay origin, from saus (“spicy sauce”) + sate (“skewered meat”).

However, the origin of the Malay word sate is disputed. Most native Malay words have corresponding rhymes, but sate does not rhyme with any other word. The Indonesian Wikipedia article for sate suggests that sate is from a Tamil word, and is a type of street food invented in Java island during the early 19th century.

I'm not sure whether the Dutch version of saté or sesaté contains any pork in historical recipes. If it does, than there's a strong Balinese connection, because the majority of Javanese people are Muslim and do not consume pork, unlike the Balinese people. KevinUp (talk) 21:02, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Linking sosatie as a descendants was my doing, based on the etymology of English sosatie having alleged a Dutch intermediate step. But that might be wrong, though I wouldn't rely on Wikipedia at all for this either.

I will look into the question about pork. ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 15:58, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

@Lingo Bingo Dingo: I found this while searching for "sesaté sosatie": http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/sate The second reference (Dialectwoordenboeken en woordenboeken van variëteiten van het Nederlands) suggests that the term "sateh" is from Javanese sateh, originally Tamil sataj, but I'm not sure about the original spelling in Dutch/Javanese/Tamil.

As for English or Afrikaans sosatie, I think it is likely to be derived from Dutch saus + saté rather than sesaté. KevinUp (talk) 17:05, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Whether it is strongly linked with pork is a little hard to tell, but seems like it isn't in the earlier results.

Van Wyk (Afrikaans etymological dictionary) gives a Indonesian Dutch or Malay origin from sesate(h), sateh. The oldest word list (ca. 1880) gives sassati, with sosatie appearing in the early 20th century. I don't think the compound is likely at all, because then one would expect stress on the first syllable (the Afrikaans is stressed on the second syllable). The form sausati appears once in a word list from 1899, which seems secondary. Forms like sasaté also appear a few times in Dutch. ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 08:54, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

The link from Algemeen Nederduitsch-Maleisch Woordenboek [6] seems to suggest that sasaté has a Javanese origin. Anyway, as mentioned above, sate isn't a native Malay word, due to lack of corresponding rhymes. I found the Javanese spelling ꦱꦠꦺ (saté) on Javanese Wiktionary. Someone else will have to check whether ꦱꦱꦠꦺ (sasaté) exists or not. KevinUp (talk) 09:33, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes, ascribing it to Malay and stopping there is not useful. I have added another unspecific step to the etymology and changed Malay to Indonesian. Does the Tamil origin seem plausible to you? ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 10:05, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

I think the previous edit where sosatie is stated as "from Dutch sesaté or directly from Malay sate" is good enough. We might be dealing with two different etymologies: (1) Dutch sesaté from a Javanese or Balinese word and (2) Dutch saté from a type of street food, presumably based on Betawi (Jakarta Malay dialect) saté, from Tamil சதை (catai, “flesh”).

However, the origin of the word is disputed, so I think it would be better to exclude the Javanese/Balinese or Tamil origin and revert to the previous edit. KevinUp (talk) 11:12, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

On an unrelated note, I think we have to be careful about converting Malay to Indonesian since technically Indonesian did not exist before its independence in 1945. Prior to independence, there's Malay, spoken in the vicinity of the Riau-Lingga Sultanate, and also the Betawi language, a dialect/creole of Malay spoken in Jakarta. Modern colloquial Indonesian, although based on Riau-Lingga Malay, is significantly influenced by Betawi, because of the position of Jakarta as its capital.

I think we can use "Malay" for the etymology of Dutch saté, because "Betawi" is a direct descendant of Malay. A historical dictionary for Betawi (Batavia/Jakarta Malay dialect) to Dutch might be useful for us to identify such words. I'm reminded of Dutch toko, which might be from Betawi, rather than Malay or Indonesian. KevinUp (talk) 11:12, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Is 1945 used as a cutoff point for Indonesian? Isn't there continuity with the variety of Malay used by the colonial administration though? ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 14:59, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

• The cutoff point for Indonesian can be taken as 1928, when the Youth Pledge (Sumpah Pemuda) was made by young nationalists who proclaimed "bahasa Indonesia" as the language of unity. The chosen language was based on the standardized form defined by the late Ali Haji bin Raja Haji Ahmad (1808-1873), who wrote Kitab Pengetahuan Bahasa, the first monolingual Malay dictionary in the region based on the Malay dialect of Johor-Pahang-Riau-Lingga.
• As for the language used by the Dutch colonial administration, Malay was designated as the second official language in 1865, but was later removed as an official language in 1932 due to the prominent rise of nationalism. [7] This language is probably the same language standardized by Ali Haji bin Raja Haji Ahmad.
• I think it is important to identify when a "Malay" word was first attested in the Dutch language. From 1641 to 1825, the Dutch occupied Malacca (present day Malaysia), so words from that time period is "Malay". However, words borrowed during the time of the Dutch East Indies (1800-1948) could also be Javanese, Balinese, Sundanese or some other creole of Malay, such as Betawi (these four languages are spoken on Jawa island).
• To be safe, Malay words based on Riau-Lingga can be searched here: Kitab Pengetahuan Bahasa (romanized in Indonesian) or Puisi-puisi Raja Ali Haji (romanized in modern Malay). KevinUp (talk) 03:57, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

In the Malay language, when the prefix se- is used before a noun, it usually means "one" or "the whole/the entire". However, I've never heard of the term "sesate" used for the sense "one satay" or "the entire satay". The grammatical form to refer to "one satay" is "secucuk sate" (a skewer of satay) while "entire satay" is "seluruh sate".

As stated in the entry for se-, the "one" sense is from a shortened form of esa while the "whole/entire" sense is a clipping of seluruh. I don't think the element se- in sesaté is derived from Malay or Indonesian though. KevinUp (talk) 21:02, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Additional comment: It seems that the se- element may be a reduplicated form of sate in the Balinese language. [8] (from [9]) KevinUp (talk) 02:01, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

In this word, I would rather based on partial reduplication of saté and means as a plural form of saté which written as saté-saté. The example of this is the pair of rerata and rata-rata in Indonesian/Malay. Xbypass (talk) 16:25, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

@Xbypass: Are there any types of Balinese saté which has meat roasted with onions on a stick? As I recall, Balinese saté is comprised of ground meat roasted on bamboo skewers, but I'm not sure whether there are other varieties with onions. KevinUp (talk) 02:37, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

@Lingo Bingo Dingo. I found the word "sesate" recorded in this dictionary:

• 1901, A.H.L. Badings, Nieuw Hollandsch-Maleisch, Maleisch-Hollandsch Woordenboek [New Dutch-Malay, Malay-Dutch dictionary], page 416:

  sasâté - stukjes vleesch met uien gebraden (aan een stokje).

  /sə.sa.te/ - pieces of meat with onions roasted (on a stick).

Compare this with another entry:

• 1928, Ph.S. Van Ronkel, Maleisch Woordenboek: Maleisch-Nederlandsch, Nederlandsch-Maleisch in de officieële Maleische spelling [Malay Dictionary: Malay-Dutch, Dutch-Malay in the official Malay spelling], page 112:

  satai - stukjes vleesch aan een pin geregen en geroosterd, in Java satē, sesatē.

  /sa.tai/ - pieces of meat pierced on a pin and roasted, in Java satē, sesatē.

So it seems like these are two different words. The first one, /sə.sa.te/, has onions, and is probably related to the Afrikaans dish sosatie while the second one, /sa.tai/ is related to satay (standard Indonesian spelling: satai) which has a Javanese origin, and is not roasted with onions.

I'll have to check whether "sesate" is recorded in other colonial-era dictionaries to see if it's actually a native Malay word. KevinUp (talk) 02:37, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

@KevinUp Klinkert (1930) and Von de Wall (1870s) both mention sĕsaté/sĕsatai under their lemma for satai as a variant. I didn't receive your ping by the way. ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 13:58, 16 November 2019 (UTC)