Talk:pop pop

RFD discussion: September–October 2015

The following information passed a request for deletion (permalink).

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

---

pop pop

The deletion of this entry makes no sense, since this term has been in use for quite a while. Calling it a protologism shows a lack of English language experience. Is Wiktionary just about England's //officially taught// English, or do other versions also qualify? -- 70.51.202.113 11:39, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

I can't see the page history, so I don't know why it was deleted. But if it's what I think, it's just a variation of papa or a combination of that and pop. But it's not a protologism; I've heard it used a few times, either in real life or on television, although I can't remember exactly when. If that's what the entry is about, it should be restored. P Aculeius (talk) 13:41, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Restored for discussion. bd2412 T 15:42, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Citations are not hard to come by, although hyphenation and capitalization are all over the map. E.g.:

• 1975, Charlotte Epstein, Nursing the Dying Patient: Learning Processes for Interaction, page 142:

  On March 16, 1972, my grandfather (Pop-Pop) died at his house two blocks away from us.

• 1997, Bertice Berry, I'm on My Way But Your Foot Is on My Head: A Black Woman's Story of Getting Over Life's Hurdles, p. 238:

  Pop Pop died two years ago, but I know that he is still with me.

• 1998, Sunny Ariel, Shalom My Love: The Story of a True Love That Bridges Heaven and Earth, page 8:

  Sometimes there is a recognized smell, like when your daughter smelled her pop-pop’s aftershave on the first anniversary of his passing.

• 2006, Madge D. Owens, The Final Curve, page 270:

  If only his pop-pop wasn't out of the country traveling.

• 2010, C. R. Webster, From the Cradle to the Cyclone Fence, page 95:

  He loved his grandfathers so much. He had been the center of his Pop Pop’s world from day one.

bd2412 T 15:45, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

I am very sceptical that this refers specifically to the maternal grandfather; if it is side-specific, I would expect it to refer to the paternal grandfather, but it may not even be side-specific. I tend to think it's idiomatic enough to keep (especially if it's not paternal-specific). (Someone's "pop's pop", in contrast, would not be idiomatic.) - -sche (discuss) 15:50, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

I believe it is specific to a paternal grandfather. Some uses seem to reflect this distinction:

• 2010, Belinda Hulin, Roux Memories: A Cajun-Creole Love Story with Recipes, page 112:

  Pop-Pop, my father's father, didn't speak English, and he was already aged when I was a little girl.

This could be coincidence, however. bd2412 T 15:59, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

I take that back. There are also instances specific to a maternal grandfather, although not particularly more:

• 2014, Ken Ludmer, Insanity Begins at Home, page 56:

  My mother's father was now in Florida, and he was no help to me growing up, except for showing me how to fish when I was a kid. Plus, Pop-Pop couldn't read.

bd2412 T 21:39, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

I have modified the entry accordingly. - -sche (discuss) 22:13, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

What's the problem with this entry? Idiomatic? Yes. Attested? Yes. Just keep it. Renard Migrant (talk) 10:55, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Not a single one of the above attest-quotes has "pop pop" in this form, lowercase. Move to Pop-Pop, which has 3 quotes of the exact form? --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:12, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

That is an interesting question. I haven't actually tested for primacy of usage, and I'm not sure how I would, but I think that it is unusual to have a term with mixed usage at a capitalized form. bd2412 T 02:13, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

The hyphenated form does seem to be more common than the spaced form, both when trying various Google Books searches and when looking through Google Books Ngram Viewer, where every collocation of unspaced "pop pop" that I tried was too rare to plot, except bare "pop pop" which is ambiguous since it often occurs as onomatopoeia. The lemma should stay lowercase, of course, since the capitalization is just honorific and can also be seen on Grandmother, Dad, Aunt, Professor, Officer, etc, etc. So, move to "pop-pop". - -sche (discuss) 03:12, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

My stance was that in-the-middle-of-sentence capitalization should be faithfully represented in our entries. Or else, could not I say that the capitalization of "Frenchman" is just honorific and that the entry should be frenchman? Since the searches that I made in Google books suggest the capitalized "Pop-Pop" is much more common than lowercase "pop-pop", I'd see the main entry at Pop-Pop, not pop-pop. --Dan Polansky (talk) 05:22, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

• Delete the exact form "pop pop" unless and until attested; keep Pop-Pop and pop-pop as attested on exact-form basis, per Citations:Pop-Pop and Citations:pop-pop. We have not a single attest-quote of "pop pop" right now. --Dan Polansky (talk) 05:31, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
  • Later: Keep the exact form "pop pop" based on the citations provided below. --Dan Polansky (talk) 06:51, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

• Citations added:
• 2010, Charles Young, Root for the Underdog: Back-up Catcher and other sports stories, page 84:

  I was wishing my pop pop was here to give these guys some advice.

• 2011, Dr. Delphinia D. McNeill Burnett, The Love of a Father: From A Daughters View, page 57:

  My most memorable moment with my pop pop was when I was younger.

• 2014, Ramin Ganeshram, FutureChefs: Recipes by Tomorrow's Cooks Across the Nation and the World, page 96:

  My pop pop was a teenager in the 1940s and he worked at a restaurant doing everything from washing dishes to cooking.

Cheers! bd2412 T 16:01, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Great job finding those. I had tried to find citations of that exact form but gave up in the face of all the other forms Google Books turned up. Anyway, keep (pop-pop as the lemma, pop pop as an alt form). The term is attested and idiomatic, especially since it can refer to one's mother's father. - -sche (discuss) 02:59, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Kept. No need to stand on ceremony here, as all issues raised have been resolved by the addition of citations and tweaking of the definition. Cheers! bd2412 T 13:34, 30 September 2015 (UTC)