Talk:liquid nitrogen

RFD discussion: September 2013–February 2014

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for deletion.

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Liquid something

liquid nitrogen

Sum of parts: liquid + nitrogen. Doubtful it has any non-SOP translations. Keφr 07:48, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Delete. Mglovesfun (talk) 09:29, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Delete. Nothing special about this. — Ungoliant ^(Falai) 10:36, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

“liquid nitrogen”, in OneLook Dictionary Search. shows that some dictionaries have it, mostly followers of WordNet (Does that tell you anything about WordNet?), and several medical dictionaries. The extremely low temperatures of these liquids is the salient fact that should be in any definition that is not SoP. In addition the words come up in less-than-technical contexts in which the users might not be expected to have that salient information. I think we can find a few instances of sci-fi or medical novels that find they need to explain that these liquids are colder than anything in normal human experience. Keep and redefine. DCDuring TALK 13:44, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Redefine how? We can't exactly avoid saying it's nitrogen in liquid form. Mglovesfun (talk) 15:28, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Add the most salient fact: it's very cold: between −196 °C (77 K; −321 °F) and 63 K (−210 °C; −346 °F). DCDuring TALK 16:09, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

And how does hot liquid nitrogen look like? Keφr 16:14, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

The same as any other hot liquid - it boils. SemperBlotto (talk) 16:16, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

No, boiling liquid nitrogen turns into a gas in an instant before it even manages to become "warm" by any definition that would agree with everyday use. Keφr 16:24, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

But liquid nitrogen is not an "everyday" material. Like any other liquid it takes heat to turn it into a gas; heat moves through a liquid mostly by convection and so cannot turn into a gas "in an instant". When I have used it, it has always just boiled steadily. But anyway, this entry will be deleted because, even though liquid nitrogen is widely used to obtain low temperatures and deserves an encyclopedia entry, the term is simply the sum of its parts. SemperBlotto (talk) 16:42, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Lemmings be damned. What do they know? DCDuring TALK 16:47, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

My point was, specifying that liquid nitrogen is "very cold" does not narrow down the meaning in any way, because liquid nitrogen is always very cold. Keφr 17:28, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

It isn't really about 'know', they just have different criteria to us. Mglovesfun (talk) 17:10, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Among the various idiomaticity criteria we would be ignoring the existence of the acronyms LN and LIN and the inseparability of the components (I think).

This is SoP only for those who took and remember their chemistry. For whom does Wiktionary exist? NOT for the folks served by WordNet or the medical glossaries? I suppose we don't want to serve those who miss the salient fact. Let them use Wikipedia. DCDuring TALK 18:03, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Meh, you could say the same about negative square root (not understood by those who have forgotten their maths) or polymorphic constructor (comp sci). Still very much SoP. Equinox ◑ 04:18, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

I probably would about polymorphic constructor, except for the fact that ordinary humans won't be confronted with it, probably why no OneLook dictionary has it. DCDuring TALK 01:22, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Keep. I think liquid nitrogen has enough industrial, medical, etc. applications for this to be considered an inclusion-worthy lexical unit and not just state of matter + chemical element. Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 03:30, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Keep. Because this is a product as Cloudcukoolander says, it seems this is a word not merely SoP. You wouldn't go to a supplier and say, I'd like some nitrogen" with the expectation that the clerk would say, "What phase?" but if you asked for a latte on a hot day, the barista would say, "Hot or iced?" The patent abstract [1] has "a refrigerant such as liquid nitrogen" which seems to indicate this is a noun on its own. Also, [2] has "liquid nitrogen cooling" where "liquid nitrogen" is used as a single item in attribution to modify cooling. Another patent abstract at [3] has "gasified liquid nitrogen" which again seems to be an argument that this is a thing beyond SoP. --BB12 (talk) 17:43, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Keep. You say liquid nitrogen temperature (77 K) but not liquid oxygen temperature. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 01:37, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

• Comment liquid hydrogen was deleted in 2011; if we're looking at industrial usage, it should be restored for that reason. -- 02:25, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

• RFD kept: no consensus for deletion after months since nomination. Pro del: Kephir, Mglovesfun, Ungoliant; pro keep: DCDuring, Cloudcuckoolander, BenjaminBarrett12, TAKASUGI Shinji; prolly pro del: SemperBlotto, Equinox. With the most pro-del reading, 5 for del, 4 for keep. --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:56, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

liquid oxygen

Same as above. Just because it doesn't occur at room temperature doesn't make it an idiom. Mglovesfun (talk) 10:39, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

If you're going that route, we also have liquid ammonia and liquid helium. bd2412 T 23:58, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

I strongly agree with the deletion of liquid oxygen, liquid ammonia and liquid helium. --Daniele Pugliesi (talk) 22:21, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, go ahead. --Hekaheka (talk) 23:25, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Delete. Unidiomatic. Anyone familiar with the words liquid and oxygen knows exactly what this means. Those unfamiliar with chemistry might think it’s impossible, or wonder what is its purpose or how it looks, but they will still know exactly what it means. — Ungoliant ^(Falai) 16:02, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Keep all. These seem at least as wordful as plastic bag, which is obvious to anyone who knows what plastic and bag mean. There are people who deal with liquid hydrogen, liquid ammonia and liquid helium on a daily basis who consider each of them to be singular objects. In contrast, liquid erbium and liquid seaborgium, for example, are merely liquefied versions of those respective elements that, AFAIK, nobody really considers to be nouns in their own right. --BB12 (talk) 20:18, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

• I would keep liquid nitrogen because of its occasional use (and misuse) in fiction and literature, but delete liquid oxygen, liquid ammonia, and liquid helium. bd2412 T 14:27, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

• Comment liquid hydrogen was deleted in 2011 -- 02:25, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Deleted. Note that liquid ammonia and liquid helium are not RFDed and therefore not deleted. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 01:17, 24 February 2014 (UTC)