Talk:eikä

Where to put the sense "nor"

@Surjection, Hekaheka, Thadh We detail the use of this term in the sense "nor, and not" at -kä, which seems a little strange as -kä is by no means productive in forming "nor" phrases. It's an idiomatic phenomenon only found in one unusual verb's six inflections. Though that is mentioned on the page, I think the way we do it is inconsistent and misleading. Additionally, this is a usability issue – -kä is not where the reader will be looking for this information when they first encounter an etkä in a text. brittletheories (talk) 11:01, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Well, to be fair, as a learner/reader you don't immediately recognise clitics like -kaan, -kin either, yet creating a form-of entry for all terms with these clitics seems unreasonable.

I think an important question is: Is this the same term as the interrogative clitic (in mikä, and more relevant for me, the Ingrian interrogative -k), or are these different clitics after all? I also don't know how we can really define these entries ("he/she/it doesn't ... either"?).

Anyway, it's an interesting thought, I wonder what the others think... Thadh (talk) 13:12, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, though the main difference between -kin and -kä is that one is productive and the other only goes with one verb, so the resulting entries are finite and quite few. brittletheories (talk) 13:19, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Also, interestingly, emphatic -kä is at least semi-produtive, forming words like "eikä", as in

"Söin juuri äitini."

"Eikä!"

or

"Eikä! Äitini söi juuri veljeni."

Dialectally, its productivity extends to many pronouns, such as jolle(k)ka and noille(k)ka. brittletheories (talk) 13:25, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't understand what the issue is - etkä links to -kä just fine, where people can read how it's used. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 19:21, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Made an effort to solve it. Have a look! --Hekaheka (talk) 20:00, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Someone should still add a table of the personal forms enkä, etkä, eikä, emmekä, ettekä, eivätkä; äläkä, älköönkä, älkäämmekä, älkääkä, älköötkä --Hekaheka (talk) 09:05, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Added a primitive-looking inflection table. I don't think it is a problem if we have information repeated under "eikä" and "-kä". --Hekaheka (talk) 10:18, 21 August 2022 (UTC)