Talk:anti-Semitism

Early discussion about etymology

This is a dictionary and not an encyclopedia. As such it reports on the usage of words and language, irrespective of whether we agree with a particular usage. Most of the material that has been added should be removed. Eclecticology 18:42 Jan 27, 2003 (UTC)

See also: en:Talk:Anti-Semitism (etymology complete), en:Talk:Anti-Semitism (etymology)

Are usage notes and info on coinage/etymology on-topic for this dictionary?

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Few people know that the word antisemitism was created by an antisemite, Wilhelm Marr. Marr's intention was to replace the German word Judenhass (Jew-hatred) with a term that would make Jew-haters sound less vulgar and even somewhat scientific.

Unfortunately, the term Marr created is particularly misleading since it conveys the impression that antisemites oppose Semites. [...] But for Marr, and all subsequent enemies of the Jews, antisemitism has always been a code word used exclusively against Jews. [...] For this reason, many writers today have adopted the practice initiated by several Jewish and Christian scholars, and write antisemite as one word; spelling it "anti-semite" in the conventional manner, only fosters the false impression that there is a wider ethnic entity against which "anti-Semitism" is leveled.

— Rabbi Joseph Telushkin, Jewish Literacy →ISBN, p. 513-14. (--dmh)

Thanks dmh. I had no idea what might have been of concern - I never would have guessed it was the hyphen that was disputed. There was no indication what was wrong - the whole article looked pretty darn clean - just an extra rfc with no explanation why it was there.

Wow that is wordy; this isn't Wikipedia. What would a brief usage note look like? Oh, I see - sneak it into the (currently missing) etymology...

===Etymology===

Originally Judenhass (Jew-hatred), replaced with scientific sounding anti-semite by an antisemite. Hyphen later dropped to emphasize hatred of Jews, instead of any general Semite.

and then move it to antisemite, maybe add a second Usage note somewhere? Are there any reasons not to do this? I think I'd like to contain the debate to the discussion page, rather than forging ahead, as this is such a flame-war prone topic. Comments? --Connel MacKenzie 05:44, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the best approach is here. Telushkin is well-respected and very knowledgeable in Judaica (Nu, he's a Rabbi, what did you expect?). I would expect that his etymology is accurate, but the full story has to include actual usage. This is another case of technical definition vs. etymologically-based definition vs. actual usage. As always, we have to tell the full story, preferably concisely. -dmh 06:37, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

To clarify: The particular issue is that popular usage may not (probably doesn't) observe the distinction that Telushkin presents. Further, actual Jew-haters may show different usage patterns than the general population — this often happens with specialized groups of all kinds — and ascertaining this would involve a survey of anti-Jewish literature. Not at the top of my to-do list.

Finally, we have to deal with the dual connotation. One occasionaly sees "How could I be anti[-]semitic? I'm a Semite myself." from Arab authors. I hasten to add that I saw this from an avowed pluralist who clearly did not hate Jews, but had criticized the Israeli government and had been accused of anti[-]semitism. On the other hand, the whole reason the accusation had been leveled was that the accuser had taken a criticism of the Israeli government as a criticism of Jews in general.

Lexicographically, I'm not sure that the broader (literal) sense is justified. I doubt that it's ever used much directly. People who hate all Semitic people don't generally stop there, and bigot or racist would be a more likely label. I expect that the literal sense generally only implied, in situations like (or even more highly charged than) the one above. I suspect that including the second definition is a way of making this point, but it would probably be better to make it explicitly -dmh 06:53, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well, can you do that succintly? I don't think I can. Anyone like to try? --Connel MacKenzie 08:27, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I don't really agree with this definition. Like Dmh, I am not sure whether the second meaning is legitimate. I also think the first meaning is defined too narrowly. I think anti-semitism can mean prejudice against Jews; it doesn't have to mean hatred or discrimination. And I think the usage note is wrong. I think any anti-Jewish prejudice is anti-semitism, and we shouldn't have a usage note telling people that it isn't. It's inappropriate to discourage the use of the term anti-semitism for anti-Jewish prejudice, just as it's inappropriate to discourage the use of the term racism for racial prejudice. Should racism have a usage note saying "be careful of this term because some may interpret it as accusing someone of favouring slavery or lynchings"? No. If someone dislikes blacks, they are a racist regardless of whether they favour slavery. If someone thinks Jews are greedy, they are are an anti-semite regardless of how strongly they oppose genocide. So the usage note is wrong. -Richard 10:28, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Farewell

In an effort to help, I often try to look at category:Requests for Cleanup. This one appeared there, yet the article appeared syntactically correct. I removed the {{rfc}} and asked for comments here. There was apparently more than meets the eye, as the resulting discussion shows. I am glad to see the discussion progressing, and I wish you well at reaching a concensus on what the article should look like. I do not think this is the appropriate place for encyclopedic length articles. As evidenced by the vitriolic tone of Richard's post, this is clearly a very touchy subject that must be approached with caution and reserve. As I am lacking in both those talents, I am removing this article from my watchlist. Farewell, and good luck. --Connel MacKenzie 21:53, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Antisemitism is about Jews

Antisemitism is about Jews, not people who subscribe to the fictitious notion of "Semitism."

Here are a few references (in order) that a quick google search of antisemitism produced when combined with the terms define, definition, dictionary or thesaurus:

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/anti-Semitism

  1.   Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism.
  2. Discrimination against Jews.

http://www.answers.com/topic/anti-semitism

  1.  Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism.
  2. Discrimination against Jews.

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/anti-Semitism the intense dislike for and prejudice against Jewish people

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861586058/anti-Semitism.html behavior discriminating against Jews: policies, views, or actions that harm or discriminate against Jews

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/anti-Semitism 1. Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism. 2. Discrimination against Jews.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/spbr/40347.htm In recent years, global anti-Semitism has had four main characteristics, all of which are interrelated: The first is the traditional anti-Jewish prejudice, which includes the views of ultranationalists and others who assert that the Jewish community controls governments, the media, international business and the financial world; we have also, more recently, seen anti-Jewish sentiment being expressed by growing Muslim communities in Europe; strong anti-Israel sentiment that crosses the line between objective criticism of Israel and its policies and demonization of Israel and Jews; and finally, criticism of the United States and globalization which spills over to the Jewish community which is seen as aligned with the United States.

In effect, anti-Semites seek to gain support for their perverse agenda by identifying the issues that cause disaffection amongst various groups in a population and then skillfully blame Jews for the existence of such problems.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/40258.htm The definition of anti-Semitism has been the focus of innumerable discussions and studies. While there is no universally accepted definition, there is a generally clear understanding of what the term encompasses.

For the purposes of this report, anti-Semitism is considered to be hatred toward Jews—individually and as a group—that can be attributed to the Jewish religion and/or ethnicity. An important issue is the distinction between legitimate criticism of policies and practices of the State of Israel, and commentary that assumes an anti-Semitic character. The demonization of Israel, or vilification of Israeli leaders, sometimes through comparisons with Nazi leaders, and through the use of Nazi symbols to caricature them, indicates an anti-Semitic bias rather than a valid criticism of policy concerning a controversial issue.

Global anti-Semitism in recent years has had four main sources:

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     Traditional anti-Jewish prejudice that has pervaded Europe and some countries in other parts of the world for centuries. This includes ultra-nationalists and others who assert that the Jewish community controls governments, the media, international business, and the financial world.
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     Strong anti-Israel sentiment that crosses the line between objective criticism of Israeli policies and anti-Semitism.
   *
     Anti-Jewish sentiment expressed by some in Europe's growing Muslim population, based on longstanding antipathy toward both Israel and Jews, as well as Muslim opposition to developments in Israel and the occupied territories, and more recently in Iraq.
   *
     Criticism of both the United States and globalization that spills over to Israel, and to Jews in general who are identified with both.

http://eumc.eu.int/eumc/material/pub/AS/AS-WorkingDefinition-draft.pdf

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2004-04/16/article08.shtml The Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged, defines "anti-Semitism as: "1: hostility toward Jews as a religious or racial minority group often accompanied by social, economic, and political discrimination".

"2: opposition to Zionism: sympathy with opponents of the state of Israel". By all definitions, the term involves hostility toward Jews. But the world edition of Merriam-Webster's dictionary reprinted in 2002 linked anti-Semitism to Zionism and Israel.

According to Encyclopedia Britannica, anti-Semitism is hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious or racial group.

http://www.highbeam.com/ref/doc3.asp?docid=1O999:antisemitism hostility to or prejudice against Jews.

http://www2.bartleby.com/59/13/antisemitism.html Prejudice or hatred against Jews, a Semitic race. (See Arab-Israeli conflict and Nazis.)

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=anti-Semitism

hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group 

http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/article-9355521/anti-Semitism Hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious group or “race.”

Although the term anti-Semitism has wide currency, it is regarded by some as a misnomer, implying discrimination against all Semites, including Arabs and other peoples who are not the targets of anti-Semitism as it is usually understood. 

http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2005/july27/obit-langmuir-072705.html In Toward a Definition of Antisemitism, Langmuir outlined a conceptual framework that differentiated between medieval anti-Judaism, in which the Jew was hated by Christians because he was a Jew (an adherent to a rival religion with competing truth-claims), and medieval anti-Semitism, in which the Jew became an unreal, demonic, invented creature, the product of Christian mythmakers (a child-killer, a poisoner of wells and, consequently, responsible for the Black Death), Dickson said. Langmuir's second book offered a general theoretical overview of medieval anti-Semitism.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/a/a0349100.html

1. Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism.
2. Discrimination against Jews

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=3203&dict=CALD the strong dislike or cruel and unfair treatment of Jewish people: Nazi anti-Semitism forced him to emigrate to the USA.

--Doright 17:06, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

RFV discussion: March–July 2014

This entry has survived Wiktionary's verification process.

Please do not re-nominate for verification without comprehensive reasons for doing so.

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anti-Semitism

RFV-sense of two senses:

1. "(broader sense) Ethnicistic prejudice, discrimination or hostility directed against any other Semitic people (ancient or modern), such as Samaritans, Palestinians, Arabs or Assyrians; anti-Samaritanism, anti-Palestinianism, anti-Arabism, anti-Assyrianism."
2. "Prejudice or hostility towards adherents of Abrahamic religions."

There having been some discussion throughout the past century about the use of "anti- + Semite" to mean "anti- + [one category of Semite]", I suppose there may be uses of the first of those senses (added in diff), though I expect it may be rare and restricted to specific contexts. The second sense I am not familiar with at all. - -sche (discuss) 20:43, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Our "beloved" pro-Palestine POV pusher Islam editor added three citations for the former sense, and listed them under the latter. Sigh. Also, can we get rid of these awkward-sounding "ethnicistismic" and "religionistisismicistic" labels? I doubt anti-Semites care what they base their prejudice on. Keφr 07:18, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree that the words "ethinicistic" and "religionistic" are not only a handful to read, but also add no additional meaning to the definition. --WikiTiki89 07:58, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

I have added the qualifier "rare" to both if that helps. Pass a Method (talk) 18:31, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

It helps, but they still need to be attested. --WikiTiki89 19:51, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

I think the citations are fine now. Pass a Method (talk) 18:37, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Passed since no one disputed PaM’s citations. I’m not sure the definition is 100% accurate, though. I will start a Tea Room discussion. — Ungoliant ^(falai) 18:34, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Race? What?

Discussion moved to Wiktionary:Tea_room/2021/May.

antisemitism vs anti-semitism

Just noting that Google search currently produces about 28,500,000 results for "antisemitism" vs About 21,400,000 results for "anti-semitism". BenAveling (talk) 17:08, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Google web search hit counts are notoriously unreliable (it may claim a certain number of hits but then, if you page through to the last page, only actually have found far fewer hits). Google Scholar hit counts have in the past been more accurate, although the round numbers I got when I searched just now make me suspicious they're now being rounded or guesstimated, too. Nonetheless, the results I found were: since 2020: 18,800 hyphenated vs 16,300 without hyphen. Since 2023: 11,800 hyphenated vs 10,900 without hyphen. This is closer than I would've expected based on the last available Google Books data, for 2019, when hyphenated was about 2x as common as without hyphen. - -sche (discuss) 20:21, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

new usage: designates a critic of Israel

I'm seeing more and more usage of the word antisemite to describe people who object to things Israel does.

e.g. this, from a conscientious objector: "They say I’m naïve and selfish, and sometimes also that I’m antisemitic, a traitor, and that they wish me all kinds of violent things." https://www.972mag.com/sofia-orr-conscientious-objector-israeli-army/

To me, this doesn't match the described usage - it's about Israel, not about Jews in general. And being a conscientious objector doesn't IMHO imply hostility to Jews

BenAveling (talk) BenAveling (talk) 17:15, 6 April 2024 (UTC)