Talk:State of Israel

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State of Israel

And any other state of + name entries too. It may be an official name, but it is still sum of parts. Compare "kingdom of Denmark", "republic of Ireland" etc. —CodeCat 01:54, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

I think there are several arguments for keeping official names. First, they're set phrases, the parts of which cannot be varied: states rarely have more than two official names (in the same language), even though there are many SOP ways to describe any given state. (The "French Republic", for example, could also be described as the "State of France", but only "French Republic" is official.) Relatedly, official names probably pass the "Prior knowledge" and "Lemming" tests. - -sche (discuss) 02:24, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Keep, as the official name of Israel. No, it's not just state of + name of a country. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:31, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

But why isn't it? If Israel and State of Israel are the same thing, what semantic value does "State of" add? Does it serve to disambiguate this particular Israel from other Israels (in the way that Republic of Ireland disambiguates from the Island of Ireland), or does it just add that Israel is in fact a state (which makes it SoP)? —CodeCat 02:37, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Country names are allowed, like Commonwealth of Australia, United States of America, United Kingdom, French Republic. This has been discussed ad nausea and the majority have already decided that these entries do add value. Israel happens to be called State of Israel officially, like Russia has the co-official name Russian Federation. We don't add entries just for disambiguation. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:59, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

I believe that the "State of" is part of the unresolved debate about the role of Jewish religion in the government of this incarnation of Israel, and that it serves to keep the exact religious nature of the country ambiguous? Furius (talk) 04:37, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

@Furius, you made your opinion of little value, since personal political opinions, attitudes don't have anything to do with what we do here. Besides, we do have entries for unrecognised states (Northern Cyprus), although we sometimes have no agreement on how to categorise or to define them. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:50, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

I think I was unclear - I have no personal opinion on the religious/secular nature of Israel and I don't think that the "State of" is a secret cover for anything (As you say, it wouldn't matter if I did). But I understood that the name, like the State's lack of a formal written constitution, was a result of the 1948 deadlock over the nature of the nasceant Israeli State, which was resolved by the w:Harari decision - essentially a decision to defer the decision (That's mostly the version of events presented on the website of the Israeli Parliament, so I don't think I'm presenting a personal opinion there [1]). The term "State of Israel" thus, like that of the "Republic of China" etc, has special political significance, in part because it avoids making a claim either way. As such, the term probably deserves to be included even if one wished to exclude generic full names of countries.

Why would we not have entries for unrecognised states? Furius (talk) 05:41, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I misunderstood you and my comment about unrecognised states has become irrelevant. In any case, "State of" + country is not the only case, see State of Kuwait I have created. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 06:20, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Keep all Israel is an area on the east coast of the Mediterranean, which has been home to a number of countries. The State of Israel is the sovereign state that currently exists in that area (as opposed to the former Kingdom of Israel). The distinction is clearer with, say "Republic of Ireland" - "Ireland" by itself can mean either the whole island, or the country that makes up the lower two-thirds. The Republic of Ireland by contrast is unambiguous - it only refers to that country. Smurrayinchester (talk) 06:18, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Keep all and create the ones that don't exist. Israel is a person, a nation descending from this person, a land belonging to this nation, and any of several governments that have existed on this land. The State of Israel is the current such government, as opposed to the Kingdom of Israel or the Land of Israel. The same can be said of the Kingdom of Denmark and Republic of Ireland. --WikiTiki89 08:49, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

I would keep all these entries too. Mglovesfun (talk) 09:52, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

• I would especially keep Kingdom of Denmark (if the page existed) since the Kingdom of Denmark includes Greenland and the Faroe Islands, while Demark alone is generally understood as excluding them. Likewise the Kingdom of the Netherlands includes things in the Caribbean that the Netherlands excludes. —Angr 13:03, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

  I would even create US states because not all of them are called "states": Commonwealth of Massachusetts, Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, Commonwealth of Virginia, Commonwealth of Kentucky, all the others I think are "State of ____". --WikiTiki89 13:13, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

  Actually, Netherlands also includes Bonaire, Sint Eustatius and Saba as part of the country (not the kingdom). See w:Caribbean Netherlands. —CodeCat 13:21, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

  Fair nuff, but the Kingdom also includes Aruba, Curaçao, and Sint Maarten, which are not part of the country of the Netherlands but are separate countries within the Kingdom. —Angr 13:30, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

  Where does this end, though? Do we also need a Realm of New Zealand, Republic of Upper Volta, Lord Novgorod the Great, & State of Jefferson? Furius (talk) 14:36, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

  Yes, yes, yes, and no. "State of Jefferson" never existed and would need to meet our normal CFI, not as a place name. --WikiTiki89 14:42, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

  Do place names have to refer to real places for them to be place names? To put that into perspective, was United States of America not a place name until US independence was recognised? (State of Jefferson certainly is widely attested in Google Books, so it meets CFI if idiomatic) —CodeCat 21:30, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

  They have to be, at the very least, if by no one else, recognized by their own people. I don't think that's the case with "State of Jefferson". --WikiTiki89 16:12, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

• Comment. Even if we decide we don't want official names in general, we still might want this one, because it's in common use not just as an official name. True, it's the Israeli analogue to United States of America; but it's also the Israeli analogue to just United States. (Note, for example, that State of Israel gets more Google-hits on the Jerusalem Post web-site than United States of America does on the New York Times web-site. If we trust Google-counts.) —Ruakh_TALK 18:05, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

• Keep. Per arguments above and the fact that it's a fixed phrase. ---> Tooironic (talk) 21:22, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Kept. DAVilla 03:49, 3 November 2012 (UTC)