Talk:Sam Spade
Add topicLatest comment: 3 years ago by Metaknowledge in topic RFD discussion: August–October 2021
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Specific detective in fiction. Equinox ◑ 01:06, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
- Where do you draw the line? See Sherlock Holmes. DonnanZ (talk) 09:24, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
- Sherlock Holmes includes figurative senses derived from the literal sense. I'm not saying that Sam Spade doesn't have such senses in use, but they are not in the entry. bd2412 T 14:50, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
- There are plenty of Google hits for the phrase "the Sam Spade of". If I can be arsed, I'll add some quotes. SemperBlotto (talk) 07:13, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
- I would say that the name of any well-known real or fictional person can be used in the pattern "the ~ of". I see this as a general feature of the English language, not a dictionary sense of the name in question. Mihia (talk) 01:11, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
- There are also quotes like "intractability of a Sam Spade", "dressed in a Sam Spade overcoat", "According to Webb, they said, “You need a Sam Spade character”". In the past this type of usage has been enough to keep an entry. DTLHS (talk) 01:14, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
- Fair enough if that's the policy, but, as I say, it seems to me to open the door to entries for virtually any publicly known real or fictional person: "sporting a David Beckham hairstyle", "the Hermione Granger of American politics" etc. etc. etc. Mihia (talk) 03:00, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
- If the characteristic shorthand is used repeatedly in print, that would seem to demonstrate that it is understood by the writer to have lexical value to the reader. bd2412 T 04:05, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
- But there are also passages like this, this, this and this that don't refer to the character directly. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:21, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
- I would consider those good hits. Format them for the entry. bd2412 T 02:35, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
- Fair enough if that's the policy, but, as I say, it seems to me to open the door to entries for virtually any publicly known real or fictional person: "sporting a David Beckham hairstyle", "the Hermione Granger of American politics" etc. etc. etc. Mihia (talk) 03:00, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
- There are also quotes like "intractability of a Sam Spade", "dressed in a Sam Spade overcoat", "According to Webb, they said, “You need a Sam Spade character”". In the past this type of usage has been enough to keep an entry. DTLHS (talk) 01:14, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
- I would say that the name of any well-known real or fictional person can be used in the pattern "the ~ of". I see this as a general feature of the English language, not a dictionary sense of the name in question. Mihia (talk) 01:11, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
- Keep per citations found by Chuck Entz. bd2412 T 17:14, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
- Keep per SemperBlotto and bd2412. The policy is WT:CFI#Fictional universes, it seems, "With respect to names of persons or places from fictional universes, they shall not be included unless they are used out of context in an attributive sense." It is not very clear what attributive sense is, but it might be something like what is in Chuck Entz quotations. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:44, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
- RFD kept: There seems to be consensus after 2 months have passed, albeit an unpopulous one, with multiple keeping supports not using boldface. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:40, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
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Needs attributive use per WT:FICTION. Ultimateria (talk) 19:42, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
- I searched on "Sam Spade, here" and found a lot of candidates. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:07, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
- Does "Sam Spade, here" count as attributive? None Shall Revert (talk) 13:41, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
- Not inherently, but it's the sort of construction used when one is sarcastically implying someone doesn't measure up to an ideal archetype. That's why I referred to "candidates": not all of them are free from reference to the fictional universe(s) of the novels, movies, etc. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:28, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
- There are a lot of links in the previous discussion now archived at Talk:Sam Spade that can be added. —Mahāgaja · talk 14:38, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
- Please review the cites I've provided for suitability. None Shall Revert (talk) 07:37, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
- Perhaps the problem is more the definition, as if we defined ‘Sam Spade’ as ‘a private or amateur detective’ then I’m sure it would pass. Reference to the Dashiell Hammett character could be left for the etymology. A GoogleBooks search yields ‘Does it sound on the up and up, Sam Spade’ (1961), ‘“No Sam Spade he”, Charlie said’ (1965) and “So here he was, a kosher Sam Spade, a Hebrew James Bond…” (1966) as well as the numerous “Sam Spade here” constructions as the clearest examples of this. So keep (with modifications).Overlordnat1 (talk) 11:05, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
- I've opened a more general discussion at the beer parlour Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2021/August#Fictional_characters_as_proper_nouns None Shall Revert (talk) 11:21, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- Perhaps the problem is more the definition, as if we defined ‘Sam Spade’ as ‘a private or amateur detective’ then I’m sure it would pass. Reference to the Dashiell Hammett character could be left for the etymology. A GoogleBooks search yields ‘Does it sound on the up and up, Sam Spade’ (1961), ‘“No Sam Spade he”, Charlie said’ (1965) and “So here he was, a kosher Sam Spade, a Hebrew James Bond…” (1966) as well as the numerous “Sam Spade here” constructions as the clearest examples of this. So keep (with modifications).Overlordnat1 (talk) 11:05, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
- Please review the cites I've provided for suitability. None Shall Revert (talk) 07:37, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
- There are a lot of links in the previous discussion now archived at Talk:Sam Spade that can be added. —Mahāgaja · talk 14:38, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
- RFD-kept, as it clearly passes the policy's requirements, but the definition needs improvement and the cites are a mess. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:14, 13 October 2021 (UTC)