Talk:Mangindanaw

Usage

An entirely independent usage:

https://www.scribd.com/document/451518460/Ang-Alamat-ng-Palendag Myrnamyers (talk) 11:50, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

@Myrnamyers Please tag me @Ysrael214 on your edits. Thanks. Yeah I saw different usages but still an obsolete term. and I own the 1613 dictionary so I was able to verify the quote.

Reminder:

1. WT:ATTEST Whether the entry itself would be deleted, 3 independent usages (Sugbuhanin already bypassed this)

2. Wiktionary:Obsolete and archaic terms Whether it should get dated, historical, archaic tags. Unlike Kumintang, Mangindanaw is very unused especially Maguindanao is the more common form. 𝄽 ysrael214 (talk) 11:55, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

@Myrnamyers Independent usages isn't an issue anymore, since the 1613 dictionary verifies it. Obsoleteness now refers to the general public's perception if this is used or not. There are a lot of halungtiyang in reddit or documents but this is used now and general public knows this. 𝄽 ysrael214 (talk) 12:14, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

At least the fact that it appeared in an independent usage (several times in that document) might possibly indicate a distributed knowledge of it. Myrnamyers (talk) 16:48, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

@Myrnamyers I'll dare you to post a poll in reddit "Have you heard or used Mangindanaw (with ng) instead of Magindanaw" with a simple Yes or No question in r/Tagalog. Then maybe we can have answers.

Also the fact that you used possibly means you aren't sure if this is in use.𝄽 ysrael214 (talk) 16:55, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

@Myrnamyers Also it could be a mistake of the user, so add more documents if you can. Thanks, that's still one document that shows it's still used now. The 1613 dictionary can't be used since obviously the publishing date isn't near our time. And oh, the documents should still be in Tagalog (or at least the sentences) since that is the entry we're looking into.𝄽 ysrael214 (talk) 16:56, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Other online attestations are on some websites and more often in social media by various users, mostly using the form "Mangindanao". Besides a possible tradition, this might also be influenced by other Philippine / Southeast Asian languages that also use the variant "Mangindanaw". Additional info to support this is that "Mangindanaw" with various spellings is quite common in recent Malay texts.

Other attestations are possibly spoken coz search results show them for videos but they do not appear immediately in text upon opening the website. Some are part of closed captions.

Here are some screenshots of attestations in text: https://imgur.com/a/pxZcJjC Myrnamyers (talk) 17:50, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

@Myrnamyers Interesting, I'll get back on you later. 𝄽 ysrael214 (talk) 18:02, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

@Myrnamyers Do you have specifically "Mangindanaw" spelling, not "Mangindanao" nor "Manguindanao", because the last two spellings strengthen that this should be an alternative form. Additionally, I talked to a Maguindanao native, he said that Manguindanao is just a misspelling despite the number of hits, and has no meaning even in other Maguindanao dialects. 𝄽 ysrael214 (talk) 15:03, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Also, several mentions in one document is still considered just one attestation since works are usually done by one author or multiple collaboratively colluding together on the same work. The exact spelling "Mangindanaw" would be considered poorly attested due to having to rely on other poorly attested spelling forms as well. The most durably attested today showing popular usage is Maguindanao. Mlgc1998 (talk) 17:23, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

They have different etymologies, though. Are they alternative forms then? Myrnamyers (talk) 17:53, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

lol if you argue that they are different etymologies, all the more reason that it will not pass attestation. Mlgc1998 (talk) 18:13, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

@Myrnamyers For now we made it like it's ultimately from Maguindanao Magindanaw but the Spanish spelling was retained.

For Maguindanao, maybe it can be an alternative form there instead as the three citations needed are only for Wiktionary:Criteria for inclusion/Well documented languages and Maguindanao isn't there:

• For all other spoken languages that are living, only one use or mention is adequate, subject to the following requirements:
• the community of editors for that language should maintain, at the relevant language considerations page, a list of materials deemed appropriate as the only sources for entries based on a single mention, and each entry should have its source(s) listed on the entry or citations page.

For Tagalog, either this becomes a rare tag or a new dialect tag:

I have asked Maguindanao acquaintance already why is there an ng there.

Anyway,

Attestation (I have copied the link Wiktionary:Criteria for inclusion#Attestation multiple times already)

Shortcut:

WT:ATTEST

“Attested” means verified through

1. clearly widespread use, or

2. use in durably archived media, conveying meaning, in at least three independent instances spanning at least a year (different requirements apply for certain languages). 𝄽 ysrael214 (talk) 18:46, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

It's here now as obsolete due to the 1613 attestation. 𝄽 ysrael214 (talk) 18:52, 28 October 2024 (UTC)