Talk:Lù

RFV discussion: March–August 2016

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Lù

Is this used in English, especially since it has a tone marker? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:36, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Here's one:

• 2006, Jie Jack Li, Laughing Gas, Viagra, and Lipitor: The Human Stories behind the Drugs We Use, page 131: "An ancient tea tree and Lù Yǔ, the author of Chá by a goatherd".

These are hard to find in the sea of false positives, though. bd2412 T 22:32, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

It's not common to use tone markers in English writing. Do we really want to go down this route here at the Wiktionary? If so, wouldn't we have to provide transcriptions for terms like Beijing as well? — SMUconlaw (talk) 09:05, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Oh my. I see we already do: Běijīng (and see "Category:Mandarin pinyin"). I wasn't aware we were providing Pinyin transcriptions. In that case, we should just change the reference to English in Lù to "Mandarin". — SMUconlaw (talk) 09:06, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

FYI, pinyin entries follow a strictly format per vote. Here, it's not a Chinese transliteration being verified but an English entry.--Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 09:27, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

As I mentioned before, then: tone markers are not generally used in English. The entry should be changed from an English to a Mandarin one. — SMUconlaw (talk) 09:43, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

The question isn't whether tone markers are generally used in English but whether they're used in this specific term as English. That's why it's at rfv. Foreign words are sometimes spelled in English as they are in the original language even though English speakers don't pronounce them the same. If this exists as English, I'm pretty sure the tone isn't pronounced. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:47, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Here are two more citations:

• 2015, Halvor Eifring, Meditation and Culture: The Interplay of Practice and Context, page 82:

  Zhū's critique of his contemporary Lù Xiàngshān 陸象山 was similar to the way he treated Hú Hóng (胡宏 1105–55), the principal figure of the Húnán school. Zhū always considered Lù’s teaching as Chánnist, because he saw him as pursuing a transcendent, immediate enlightenment and neglecting the cultivation of “principle” that could only come from protracted and gradual moral practice.

• 2014, Justin Tiwald, ‎Bryan W. Van Norden, Readings in Later Chinese Philosophy: Han to the 20th Century, page 231:

  Lù Xiàngshān 陸象山 (1139–1193) was a contemporary of Zhu Xi, as well as an influential philosophical rival.

That should settle the question of whether it is used in English. bd2412 T 21:09, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Mmmm, in that case, wouldn't there be many, many Pinyin transcriptions that appear in English texts? Should separate English sections be created for them, in addition to the Mandarin ones? To be honest, it seems rather strange to me that we should have, on each page of a Pinyin transcription like "Lù", separate "English" and "Mandarin" sections with essentially the same content. — SMUconlaw (talk) 22:08, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

If foreign words are used in English to the extent that they become English words, then we include them as English. The test is generally whether they are used in running text without being italicized, put in quotes, or otherwise set off as foreign (as with the examples above for Lù). Surnames, of course, are particularly fluid in crossing language barriers. bd2412 T 23:40, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

You don't consider having the pinyin immediately followed by the Chinese characters for the name to be setting it aside as foreign? Chuck Entz (talk) 03:00, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

I find that substantially less persuasive than a treatment of the words themselves. That can merely show that the name is identified by a different set of characters in another language. For example, one could write that "While visiting Beijing, Zhang played many games of ping pong (乒乓球)", which indicates what ping pong is called in Beijing without suggesting that "ping pong" is a non-English term. The inclusion of dates in some of these parentheticals also suggests that the information they convey is biographical rather than linguistic. In any case, in the 2015 example the following paragraph starts "Zhū's critique of Chán, Lù Xiàngshān, and Hú Hóng's Húnán school is well known and there is no need to discuss it in detail here", with no qualifiers or other indicia of "foreignness" after the terms. bd2412 T 16:38, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

A have added one more:

• 2013, David Holm, Mapping the Old Zhuang Character Script, page 768:

• As Lù Xíxìng puts it, 'as for phonophores, Chữ Nôm appears rather lax, and allows graphic simplification, rather like the “graphs with simplified phonetic” (shěngshēngzì 省聲字) in Chinese.'

bd2412 T 18:12, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

• RFV passed. —Mr. Granger (talk • contribs) 18:37, 8 August 2016 (UTC)