Talk:Kirkcaldy

Aside from the dubiousness of the caer etymology

(see Carmichael), this etymology needs to make up its mind whether it thinks the 'Caldy' is from a name, is from a locative adjective or personal epithet, or is uncertain and might come from any of the three. It shouldn't just confidentally state a confusing mash of separate ideas. — LlywelynII 22:51, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

While we are on the etymology, though, what's the source/justification for imagining that this is based on caer at all, given that kirk is very straightforwardly just the local word for a church? Even if the name preserves the rough idea of an earlier midiaeval name based around a fortress, the present name obviously recentered that around the local chuch, which should be mentioned. Alternatively, the sourcing and reason for the irregularity should be noticed within the etym. — LlywelynII 22:54, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Similarly, Wikipedia's History of Kirkcaldy says the Scottish name isn't Cair but Cathair Chaladinn, although Kircaldy itself repeats Cair Chaladain. Either way, at least cathair is an actual Scottish word, albeit one that comes from Latin cathedra and is ecclesiastical rather than military. Note also that the history page specifically notes that the area was undefended and "unlike most Scottish towns had no surrounding defensive stone wall". — LlywelynII 23:06, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

@LlywelynII: Looking in A Dictionary of British Place Names by A. D. Mills (Oxford University Press), it says it was "Kircalethyn 12th cent. 'Fort at Caledin' Welsh caer, Caledin means 'hard hill' (Welsh caled + din). Kirk- was substituted for the 'fort' element when this was no longer understood." DonnanZ (talk) 00:03, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

@Donnanz: On the assumption that Mills can be (mostly) trusted, these etymologies should just be changed then? Obviously he's using "Welsh" where Old Welsh, Brythonic, or sth is actually required.

When you think he can be trusted and know the proper emendation, please do so here and at Carmichael at the least. There are probably other southern Scottish terms with the same botched etymology issue. — LlywelynII 01:56, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Cursory check at caer's What Links Here page pulls up Cardrona as another. It has the much more plausible derivation from a version of caer in Cumbric (xcb). Using that as the emendation to Mills's "Welsh" is probably correct but it'd be nice to have a source to that. — LlywelynII 02:00, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

@LlywelynII: I wouldn't say Mills is 100% correct, and Wikipedia is only as good as its contributors, not 100% correct either. It could be Cumbric as you say, I have come across Cumbric origins for Scottish place names before. DonnanZ (talk) 09:26, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

So not very sure but feel that sth Brythonic derived (probably Cumbric) is the answer? and in any case certainly not from Scottish Gaelic? — LlywelynII 15:06, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

@LlywelynII: As there is uncertainty over which is correct, you can always add the Mills version as alternative etymology. I will leave it to you. DonnanZ (talk) 09:46, 15 November 2022 (UTC)