Talk:KTV

"karaoke television"

Definition 1 includes the term "karaoke television." Is there such a thing? I don't think so. Karaoke has always been on a television or television-like screen, but it is not really a form of broadcast television. 173.89.236.187 03:27, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Oh, I see--it's karaoke with a television providing the lyrics (and other visuals), as opposed to karaoke with just recording and no video component. 173.89.236.187 03:28, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

RFV discussion: February–July 2014

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KTV

I've never seen "KTV" as an English term in Australia, Canada, England, India, or the United States.

I've only ever seen it in mainland China.

I suspect it's "pseudo English" just like German "Handy". Otherwise it's both new and regional.

Can we find some quotations and add the missing Chinese entry? — hippietrail (talk) 17:27, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Moved from Wiktionary:Requested_entries_(Chinese)#K regarding the Chinese entry request for KTV

• KTV - has English entry, needs Chinese. Deleted with no explanation other than "removed blue links and non-words" by Wyang on 2008-02-08

  It is not Chinese. It is English used in a Chinese context, like hello, hi, bye-bye. The Chinese equivalents of these are 哈囉, 嗨, 拜拜, and there is no equivalent for KTV (like Windows). Wyang (talk) 12:28, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Same with TV, WTO, NHL and various other abbreviations. The term needs to be cited as Chinese. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 13:12, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I believe you believe it's not Chinese but it is not English. At least I can't find any evidence of it. It seems to be an English-style word invented and used only in China and Taiwan. I can show you my photos of KTV's in several provinces in China. I've been to many English speaking countries and English is my native language and I've never seen or hear it outside China.

You need to provide evidence rather than just belief. Otherwise you could choose to believe that telephone is an Ancient Greek word even though it was invented with Greek pieces by another culture.

Google hits by country:

.cn: 23,700,000

.tw: 2,590,000

.in: 866,000

.hk: 154,000

.uk: 119,000

.sg: 109,000

.ca: 87,100

.au: 76,200

.nz: 19,000

That's not one but two orders of magnitude more popular in China than in the highest rated English only country. — hippietrail (talk) 14:40, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Google hits by language: (hippietrail (talk) 04:14, 25 April 2014 (UTC))

Chinese (Simplified): 173,000,000

English: 36,100,000

Chinese (Traditional): 26,200,000

German: 4,110,000

Korean: 3,390,000

Filipino: 2,740,000

Japan: 2,560,000

Vietnamese: 2,480,000

French: 600,000

Thai: 573,000

Hindi: 196,000

Indonesian: 913,000

You have RFV-ed the English term, I have opened the RVF discussion. It still needs to be verified and cited the normal way using Google books. I personally don't see any need for this entry. I haven't seen it in Chinese dictionaries and I know Chinese people don't think it's a Chinese word. Wyang is also a Chinese person. As I said, if it's verified, someone can make an entry, not me. We had a guy, if you remember (a vandal who abused multiple accounts - abc123, Engirst and his various sock puppets) who made pizza, bacon, tennis, Thames all Chinese words and he quoted "吃pizza", "打tennis", "Thames河", etc. just to prove those words are also Chinese. These are called Chinglish and code-switching. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 14:57, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes I rfv'd it months ago. I don't know about the vandal, vandals are annoying I agree. I'm not a vandal.

I can't speak for your experience with China or Taiwan or English speaking countries or your experience with the Chinese or English languages. I asked two non-native but fluent English speakers who have never been to Japan what "KTV" is and they were both stumped. It's a small sample but I've began to think this is how it is.

We have many words not in other dictionaries and many words one or even many people don't "see a need for" for many reasons. But we include them if and how they are used. And "KTV" is used in China and in Chinese.

Now I don't know how or why it was invented. I've started to see hints that it originated in Taiwan. But it's very much used in China. Maybe it was supposed to sound cool? Maybe it comes from a brand name of some Karaoke equipment manufacturer.

I also can't tell you why Chinese people / Chinese speakers are resistant to the idea that the word is one they made up and really only they use. Maybe intuition, maybe principle, maybe language purism, maybe they don't think such words are possible, but it's pretty common. Japanese is full of words that look like English words to them but that we English speakers don't know. Many European languages think "the parking" or "a camping" are English. I'm sure Chinese is not special in having some kind of immunity to this phenomenon. Maybe this is the first example? Anyway it's real. — hippietrail (talk) 16:20, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I just discovered KTV is in a list of "Pseudo-anglicism"s in Wikipedia, where it was added just over a year ago — hippietrail (talk) 16:31, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I just realized this discussion is right on the requests page. Please feel free to move it to the talk page and leave just a summary here. — hippietrail (talk) 16:37, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I added an etymology at KTV. Please correct or add to as necessary. 173.89.236.187 21:13, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Well it's added under the English heading. That would set a precedent for moving many pseudo-loanwords from the sections for the languages in which they actually used to the sections for the languages they were designed to resemble, but in which they are not used. — hippietrail (talk) 01:17, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

It's not just China or any Chinese speaking countries. "KTV" is used in some other Asian countries and by English speakers as well, in reference to the phenomenon in those countries.

An interesting observation regarding the use of English letters and abbreviations in China.

If there is a company, concept, medicine, etc. in Japan, Russia, Arab world, etc. it may be transcribed locally as إي-بي-سي, Эй-Би-Си, エイ・ビー・シー (of course, officially or as a brand name it's still "ABC") but in China, there is hardly any transliteration for English letters (they are rare, e.g. 艾克斯 (àikèsī) for "X") and letters are pronounced the English way, even W (double-u, the hardest one for Mandarin phonology). So, are English letters also Chinese, if WTO is either read out by Chinese anchors as English or translated as 世界贸易组织 (shìjiè màoyì zǔzhī). I don't think WTO can count as Chinese word but I know some people would disagree. OK#Mandarin, 三K党 are different cases. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:20, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Don't confuse a language and it's writing system. Languages are spoken. Writing systems are secondary optional technologies.

The questions to ask are "Do Chinese speaking people say and understand the term "KTV" in their spoken communications?" and "Do English speaking people say and understand the term "KTV" in their spoken communications?"

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Latin writing system does not belong to English but is shared among many languages, including German, Filipino, Vietnamese, French, and Indonesian. We have the same kind of evidence for creating entries for the term "KTV" in all those languages, why single out English?

It's not about whether the letters are Chinese, it's about whether the term is Chinese. There are no English speakers in China forcing people to say this term or forcing them to write it in Latin letters. Chinese use the term, they say it, they decide how they write it. That they write it entirely in foreign characters may be unique to this term so far, but it has nothing to do with English speakers.

The evidence we have of English speakers using "KTV" is about the same in quality and quantity of the evidence we have of English speakers using "nihao" or "ni hao", and very many other Chinese words. Are these all now in need of English entries? — hippietrail (talk) 06:42, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Cited; the definitions may need tweaking from someone more familiar with KTVs. The Tamil TV channel sense isn’t being disputed, right? — Ungoliant ^(falai) 22:52, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. This RFV should be finally closed as an English term, even if it's popular in Asia and is often written verbatim. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:18, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Passed. — Ungoliant ^(falai) 04:24, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Also common in Cambodia

This term for karaoke or karaoke bars or clubs is also very popular in Cambodia in Latin script. So far I haven't seen it in Khmer script.

I looked out for this term but only spotted it a tiny handful of times across Malaysia, Thailand, and Laos, and then only in the most Chinese style places. Transliterated into native script in Thailand and Laos I only ever saw "karaoke" and never saw "KTV". — hippietrail (talk) 08:22, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Derived terms request for cleanup

The RFC link doesn't seem to go to any discussion so I'll put it here. Years ago when I was researching "KTV" the first or second time I came across comments that there were newer variations on KTV and RTV and DTV were the two most mentioned. Googling RTV is easier, it seems to stand for "Restaurant KTV" so presumably proper food and not just snacks are served in your private karaoke box. I took a photo from the faded sign on a defunct establishment in Taiwan about a week ago that uses "RTV" that I can upload. Another use with explanation is at http://gzsener.com/en/me/products_xq.asp?id=88

"DTV" is harder to google for but comes up in clc.fcu.edu.tw, the site for Feng Chia University along with "PTV":

Of course there's the endless variation on this theme in places such as an RTV (restaurant Karaoke), DTV (disco) or PDK(piano bar-disco-karaoke).

Actually I can't find it on the site but it shows up in the Google snippet. It seems that DTV isn't frequently used enough and PTV is even rarer. I suppose they were short-lived fads or failed experiments. I'm not sure if RTV has survived much... more than the others but I'm not sure whether enough to be included. Worth more research. — hippietrail (talk) 06:39, 18 May 2023 (UTC)