Talk:Hong
Add topicLatest comment: 5 years ago by KevinUp in topic Hokkien?
Hokkien?
[edit]@Mlgc1998 Are you sure it's from Hokkien? As surnames, 黃 should be pronounced as N̂g or Ûiⁿ, and 洪 should be pronounced as Âng. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 01:36, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung: Are the literary pronunciations not frequently used? Maybe it's from 洪 Cantonese hung4, since I can certainly find profiles like these on facebook: Kristine Hong (洪锦美), and Sarah Hong (洪蓉蓉) --Mlgc1998 (talk) 13:28, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Mlgc1998: Surname pronunciations are very particular - in most cases, they use the vernacular/colloquial versions. Hong is likely from Mandarin or Cantonese if it's 洪. Do you have proof for 黃? — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 15:15, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung: Couldn't find much for 黃, besides what I vaguely remembered years ago of discussions about how multiple surnames like ng, uy, wee, hong, ang were somehow related to each other, but I guess hong and ang are together. Also, I managed to find a korean-filipino profile: Sean Hong (홍성표)--Mlgc1998 (talk) 15:27, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- Upon receiving a notification that Korean 홍 (Hong) has been linked to Tagalog "Hong", I realize there is a need to set up proper guidelines regarding what qualifies as a surname in the Tagalog language. Are there plans to create Tagalog entries for all the surnames listed in wikipedia:Koreans in the Philippines#Notable people? And how about the surnames listed in wikipedia:List of common Chinese surnames? Are there any Tagalog dictionaries which lists these surnames? How can we distinguish between romanized Chinese and Korean surnames in Latin script and actual words in Tagalog? I'm sure the name "Sun Yat-sen" is well-attested in Tagalog publications, but does that make "Sun" a Tagalog word? See also Appendix:Tagalog surnames and Appendix:Filipino surnames. Seems like the first appendix is for the language and the second one is for the nationality. Are we going to create entries for surnames of people with Filipino nationality based on Facebook profiles and designate them all as Tagalog lemmas? KevinUp (talk) 17:44, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- @KevinUp, Mlgc1998: It's true that Facebook profiles aren't necessarily the most reliable. I think the attestation requirement in CFI is a good way to sort this out. If a surname is attested three times independently (which I would interpret here as three different people), then I'd say it'd be good to include it as a Tagalog lemma. I think this principle can be extended to each etymology, e.g. within Tagalog texts, there should be three people proven (in a reliable source) to have the surname Hong which comes from Korean 홍. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 17:58, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung, KevinUp: If it's three people proven to have a name coming from that, I think for most cases, if one person is found to have such a name, then surely his family members will also have it, unless it absolutely started out with that one guy who came in with such a name. For the korean-filipino guy I linked, he does have some relatives on his friend's list with such a family name, though if facebook is not to be considered as a reliable source, then at least, it will be likely that some form of their full official name will have been registered in government records like passports or their school or job, but I'm not sure if there is an easy way to look that up online without having to contact these people.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 18:38, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Mlgc1998: I think you might want to read WT:CFI to see what we mean by attestation. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 18:41, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Mlgc1998: I think you missed the point. We're documenting the existence and usage of the word in Tagalog. We need three independent citations of the word from reliable sources. You need to look for the word being used in a document written in Tagalog, not look for a person with that surname who lives in the Philippines. KevinUp (talk) 18:49, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung, KevinUp: Does it just have to use just "Hong" without proving where the etymology came from? cuz besides the korean one, hong has been an old enough chinese surname for many years that I remember having a classmate named Adrian Hong where we've always just called him as "Hong" because we had two other people named Adrian like him so we just kept on calling them with their surnames, and for sure, if the person exists as a name in this country then there will have been official documents and casual tagalog conversation of such a person's identity whether in Filipino(Tagalog) or English formally used in the Philippines.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 19:00, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- Please read WT:ATTEST. Having a classmate called "Hong" does not count as an attestation. If you can find official documentations and conversations (e.g. audio) please provide the links here or in your edit summary. Are you able to prove the Korean etymology, besides the Facebook profile you mentioned above? If not, the Korean origin has to be removed. If you are not sure of the etymology, then leave it blank, or discuss it with other editors on the talk page or at the Etymology scriptorium. Do not add etymologies based on your own theories and assumptions. KevinUp (talk) 19:21, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung, KevinUp: Does it just have to use just "Hong" without proving where the etymology came from? cuz besides the korean one, hong has been an old enough chinese surname for many years that I remember having a classmate named Adrian Hong where we've always just called him as "Hong" because we had two other people named Adrian like him so we just kept on calling them with their surnames, and for sure, if the person exists as a name in this country then there will have been official documents and casual tagalog conversation of such a person's identity whether in Filipino(Tagalog) or English formally used in the Philippines.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 19:00, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung, KevinUp: If it's three people proven to have a name coming from that, I think for most cases, if one person is found to have such a name, then surely his family members will also have it, unless it absolutely started out with that one guy who came in with such a name. For the korean-filipino guy I linked, he does have some relatives on his friend's list with such a family name, though if facebook is not to be considered as a reliable source, then at least, it will be likely that some form of their full official name will have been registered in government records like passports or their school or job, but I'm not sure if there is an easy way to look that up online without having to contact these people.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 18:38, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- @KevinUp, Mlgc1998: It's true that Facebook profiles aren't necessarily the most reliable. I think the attestation requirement in CFI is a good way to sort this out. If a surname is attested three times independently (which I would interpret here as three different people), then I'd say it'd be good to include it as a Tagalog lemma. I think this principle can be extended to each etymology, e.g. within Tagalog texts, there should be three people proven (in a reliable source) to have the surname Hong which comes from Korean 홍. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 17:58, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- Upon receiving a notification that Korean 홍 (Hong) has been linked to Tagalog "Hong", I realize there is a need to set up proper guidelines regarding what qualifies as a surname in the Tagalog language. Are there plans to create Tagalog entries for all the surnames listed in wikipedia:Koreans in the Philippines#Notable people? And how about the surnames listed in wikipedia:List of common Chinese surnames? Are there any Tagalog dictionaries which lists these surnames? How can we distinguish between romanized Chinese and Korean surnames in Latin script and actual words in Tagalog? I'm sure the name "Sun Yat-sen" is well-attested in Tagalog publications, but does that make "Sun" a Tagalog word? See also Appendix:Tagalog surnames and Appendix:Filipino surnames. Seems like the first appendix is for the language and the second one is for the nationality. Are we going to create entries for surnames of people with Filipino nationality based on Facebook profiles and designate them all as Tagalog lemmas? KevinUp (talk) 17:44, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung: Couldn't find much for 黃, besides what I vaguely remembered years ago of discussions about how multiple surnames like ng, uy, wee, hong, ang were somehow related to each other, but I guess hong and ang are together. Also, I managed to find a korean-filipino profile: Sean Hong (홍성표)--Mlgc1998 (talk) 15:27, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Mlgc1998: Surname pronunciations are very particular - in most cases, they use the vernacular/colloquial versions. Hong is likely from Mandarin or Cantonese if it's 洪. Do you have proof for 黃? — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 15:15, 30 October 2019 (UTC)