Talk:English vice
Add topic- Note: the below discussion was moved from the Wiktionary:Tea room.
This term is hugely polysemic; it would be fascinating to discover in just how many senses this term has been and is used. I need to go to bed now, but the entry already has six senses, each with at least one citation. Add more if you can everyone — it’s a challenge! † ﴾(u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 02:41, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
- Are some of these one-offs, or are they all broadly attributed? Perhaps English vice only has one sense: a vice being associated with the English. —Michael Z. 2008-08-29 18:02 z
- Well, I’ve found eight senses so far; each of them has one or two citations showing such usage. All of these senses will have the same etymology — which is the one and only “sense” you suggest exists. † ﴾(u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 18:58, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know, most of those quotations are either mention-only, or would work almost as well with “British vice” or “English flaw”. I'm not sure this is really an idiom. —RuakhTALK 23:57, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
- None of them are mentions, but most define the term in some way as well as using it. (Nota that it’s easier to define a term with such quotations.) I partly agree that British vice could be a near-synonym, but I’d say that’s down to “England” and “Britain” being near-synonyms for many people more than anything else. “Flaw” wouldn’t work — “vice” denotes that the negative quality is (at least semi-) intentional. I think this term is one whose meaning will not be immediately obvious to many who encounter it. I reckon it deserves an entry; we have entries for a great many terms which are far weaker idioms. † ﴾(u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 00:35, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
As an Englishman
[edit]I can confirm that I have all these vices (especially sadomasochism and snobbishness). So it's sum of parts. Oh wait I'm not gay, cancel that. Equinox ◑ 20:57, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
- Me too! All except hypocrisy. And I should add that Equinox's comments are often humorous and dumb. P. Sovjunk (talk) 19:51, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
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As pointed out in the Tea Room, most of the cites are unidiomatic: "overeating was the English vice" isn't using "English vice" as a word meaning "gluttony" any more than "Boris Yeltsin was the Russian president" makes "Russian president" an idiomatic term meaning "Boris Yeltsin". (Likewise for "hypocrisy (was|is) the English vice", "it is our great English vice", "casualness is our English vice", “Is there such a thing, Lady Hillington, as an English vice?” “Oh,” retorted the clever woman, “I thought every one knew that, Mr. Daventry; the English vice is adultery with home comforts.”
...) It seems unlikely that all of the senses are attested idiomatically, although a few probably are. Contrast e.g. French disease. Separately, the definitions use the wrong template. - -sche (discuss) 14:13, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Failed, and I've RFVed the French equivalent. - -sche (discuss) 18:55, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
As with English vice above. - -sche (discuss) 14:15, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- RFV-failed. - -sche (discuss) 21:41, 6 April 2024 (UTC)