Talk:B major
Add topicLatest comment: 11 years ago by Liliana-60 in topic B major et al
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I don't see any idiomatic meaning in this entry (as well as the rest of the major / minor keys), nor do they appear to be of any use as translation targets. DTLHS (talk) 00:00, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
- There are 15 major keys and with only six of them is the translation to e.g. German or Finnish straightforward, see e.g. duuri. As an example "B major" is (deprecated template usage) H-Dur in German and (deprecated template usage) H-duuri in Finnish. I would keep this, unless someone wants to create a multilingual appendix for these and possibly other music terms. --Hekaheka (talk) 12:00, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
- Keep all and add any that we don't have. In some languages these are hyphenated compounds, and to a person unfamiliar with music terminology, there is no way to tell which sense of B or of major or minor would be meant if the context was not explicit about it. bd2412 T 01:36, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
- Keep. Merriam-Webster has them, though not in their free version; I expect musical dictionaries also have them, so they pass the lemming test. They also pass the "in between"/"just ducky" test, in that one can't insert a pause between "B" and "major", and alternative phrases are rare and apparently obsolescent—the only relevant BGC hit for "the major of B" is from 1802; all 8 hits for "the major of B flat" are from before 1854. It also passes the "prior knowledge" and/or "Egyptian pyramid" test, because the fact that B major entails B, C♯, D♯, E, F♯, G♯ and A♯ can't be derived from B and major without an intermediate understanding of musical theory and a comprehensive entry for "major", which we currently don't have. - -sche (discuss) 18:23, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
- Re "one can't insert a pause between 'B' and 'major'": what about "flat" or "sharp"? Re "the fact that B major entails B, C♯, D♯, E, F♯, G♯ and A♯ can't be derived": that's not what the test says. Egyptian pyramid was kept because a specific pyramid was meant, which could not be surmised from the parts (supposedly). What notes are included in a key is encyclopedic knowledge much like what people are included in the peerage: our entry for peerage shouldn't include a list. (Maybe our entry for B major should include a list — I don't know — but that's not a reason to keep.) All that said, I'm not arguing for deletion: the Egyptian pyramid test may be a good one (but, as I said, not on the basis of what notes are in the B major key).—msh210℠ (talk) 18:49, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
- Re "what about 'flat' or 'sharp'": I thought someone might bring that up. :) It's a red herring. "B flat major" isn't the product of the insertion of a meaningless pause between "B" and "major", it's a different term than "B major", with a different referent. Re "peerage": that's also inapt as a comparison, in my opinion. "Peerage" means any peerage, and there have been hundreds with different compositions. In contrast, "B major" means one or two things only: "a key of five sharps (the notes B, C♯, D♯, E, F♯, G♯ and A♯)", and (apparently) a particular chord. It doesn't mean "any major that is B"(?)—there's only one "B major". - -sche (discuss) 23:21, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
- You could say the same thing about a "Senator from Illinois". The difference, I think, is the absence of a preposition. bd2412 T 01:03, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, I don't understand your comment, if it was directed at me: what is it you could say about a "Senator from Illinois"? Not that "there's only one", since each of the dozens of state or federal senators who were born in, who were raised in, or who represent Illinois could be described as a "{s|S}enator from Illinois". - -sche (discuss) 03:57, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
- My bad. I meant this as a response to Equinox below. Jack of Diamonds is like Senator from Illinois, each having parts that can be substituted, and which are bridged by a preposition. bd2412 T 04:47, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, I don't understand your comment, if it was directed at me: what is it you could say about a "Senator from Illinois"? Not that "there's only one", since each of the dozens of state or federal senators who were born in, who were raised in, or who represent Illinois could be described as a "{s|S}enator from Illinois". - -sche (discuss) 03:57, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
- You could say the same thing about a "Senator from Illinois". The difference, I think, is the absence of a preposition. bd2412 T 01:03, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
- Re "what about 'flat' or 'sharp'": I thought someone might bring that up. :) It's a red herring. "B flat major" isn't the product of the insertion of a meaningless pause between "B" and "major", it's a different term than "B major", with a different referent. Re "peerage": that's also inapt as a comparison, in my opinion. "Peerage" means any peerage, and there have been hundreds with different compositions. In contrast, "B major" means one or two things only: "a key of five sharps (the notes B, C♯, D♯, E, F♯, G♯ and A♯)", and (apparently) a particular chord. It doesn't mean "any major that is B"(?)—there's only one "B major". - -sche (discuss) 23:21, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
- Re "one can't insert a pause between 'B' and 'major'": what about "flat" or "sharp"? Re "the fact that B major entails B, C♯, D♯, E, F♯, G♯ and A♯ can't be derived": that's not what the test says. Egyptian pyramid was kept because a specific pyramid was meant, which could not be surmised from the parts (supposedly). What notes are included in a key is encyclopedic knowledge much like what people are included in the peerage: our entry for peerage shouldn't include a list. (Maybe our entry for B major should include a list — I don't know — but that's not a reason to keep.) All that said, I'm not arguing for deletion: the Egyptian pyramid test may be a good one (but, as I said, not on the basis of what notes are in the B major key).—msh210℠ (talk) 18:49, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
- To me this is like the ace of spades, 3 of diamonds, etc. business. There is a set number of notes and a standard group of "modifiers" (sharp, flat, minor, etc.), and they can be combined, thus IMO SoP. Indeed, if further elements are added, the pattern is obvious: "queen of wands" for tarot cards, "knave of clubs" where jack is called knave in older English. Remember the bit in Red Dwarf: Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers where the bored supercomputer Holly invents a new musical system with (IIRC) a piece composed in "J minor"? Equinox ◑ 22:45, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
- Keep all per -sche. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:38, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
- Keep: neither "b" nor "major" is the primary usage of the word. Frankly, a completely misguided nomination Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 01:01, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
- Keep all. Set phrases. ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:22, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
- (Side note). This group needs to be translated into foreign languages. I find it would be very useful for musicians of various cultures, as the notation has some differences in different languages (even if there is some predictability). It took me some time to translate into Russian. I'm no music expert, so I had to do some search and checking. Please join the effort. Can the group of music notes be categorised separately to make it easier? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 02:35, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
kept -- Liliana • 08:12, 19 April 2013 (UTC)