Talk:马肉

Isn't this SOP? "horse" + "meat"... —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 00:07, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

RFD 2014

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马肉

Mandarin: this is 马 (mǎ, “horse”) + 肉 (“meat”), and defined as horsemeat. Just because it happens to be one word in English doesn't mean that it is in Mandarin. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 17:52, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Why is it not a word in Chinese? Keep. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 19:35, 9 February 2014 (UTC).

• I think @Metaknowledge might be objecting to it's SOP-ness, in that you could potentially have [anything] + 肉. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 21:18, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

It's a productive component but it doesn't make 马肉 a non-word. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 21:23, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

• The argument would presumably be that it's a phrase, much like rat meat or dog meat or thigh meat, etc. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 21:33, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

I would elect to keep common 'meat' terms, especially ones that are consumed by human beings, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere. Where that line is drawn is probably going to be completely subjective. Jamesjiao → ^{T ◊ C} 22:02, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Many Chinese words are more "SoP" compared to English in the sense they're made of meaningful components, so that words are understandable if you know the individual characters but I still don't see the reason for deletion. It's also harder to determine idiomaticity for languages with no word spaces. Even if it can be conceived as SoP, I see no reason to delete it, like there is no reason to delete gas station or shopping centre. Horsemeat is not the most popular food item in China but it's included in some dictionaries, such as Iciba, Adsotrans, Bing.com, etc. The Japanese derivation uses "jūbakoyomi" "on'yomi" reading for the term, where the first component is both parts are used as components (on'yomi), not separate words. There's also a Korean derivation 마육 (mayuk), less common than 말고기 (malgogi) but it's derived from 馬肉／马肉 (mǎròu). The idiomaticity of Chinese words can also sometimes be seen by how it's romanised in standard Pinyin - "mǎròu" - solid (which is attestable) and non-idiomatic meats may be connected by possessive 的. If we don't include common words that are used by other dictionaries, users will go somewhere else. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 22:17, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

• Fair enough. Between James and Anatoli, my concerns have been addressed. I'm bowing out of this conversation now.  :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 22:30, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

The same construction is used for beef (牛肉), pork (豬肉), mutton (羊肉) and venison (鹿肉), all of which have entries, as well as for fish (雞肉鱼肉 and chicken (鸡肉), which don't. It would seem that we're more likely to have an entry if there's an English term for the meat that's different from the name of the animal (veal, 小牛肉, squab, 鴿肉, and chevon, 山羊肉 are the main exceptions). Not very consistent, to be sure. Still, given the highly SOP tendencies of the Chinese languages, I would advise caution in deciding which ones to keep. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:08, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz. 雞肉 and 鸡肉 are both "chicken" (trad./sim). You must mean 魚肉/鱼肉 (fish meat). Which meat inclusions have caused your concern? SoP entries are regularly deleted. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:21, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I meant 魚肉. Absent-minded copypaste error. I'm not really "concerned" about any one example, just pointing out the pattern. I think the best solution in general is for those familiar with the lects in question deciding case by case which are includable- without putting any weight on English usage. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:02, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

The list goes on ... @User:Atitarev: Names of meat do not require the possessive particle, even when non-idiomatic. Even "鴯鶓肉" (emu meat) has 100,000+ hits. I suggest only including 魚肉 (fish), 牛肉 (beef), 豬肉 (pork), 羊肉 (lamb), 雞肉 (chicken), 馬肉 (horsemeat), 狗肉 (dogmeat), and 鹿肉 (venison). Wyang (talk) 03:21, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I know, I said, "non-idiomatic meats may be connected by possessive 的." 肉 component is just too productive and if, e.g. some meat is consumed by humans/animals and used often, any meat type (and the word for it) may become idiomatic and includable in dictionaries. "鴯鶓肉" is not included in dictionaries just yet and érmiáoròu is unattested.--Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:15, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

• Keep. As anyone who speaks Chinese knows, a word can be created by putting two characters together, and there is no difference here between 雞肉 and 馬肉, and any other 肉 that is preceded by a singular character. ---> Tooironic (talk) 22:36, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
  • As I said before, this will need to be determined on a case-by-case basis. All the current ones in the dictionary should be kept in my opinion. Jamesjiao → ^{T ◊ C} 21:35, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Kept. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:00, 18 March 2014 (UTC)