Talk:金蟬

Discussion on species/taxonomic name

The following discussion was copied from Template talk:vern (only relevant discussion has been copied):

How about my suggestion of using something like {{vern|golden cicada|[[golden]] [[cicada]]|nopedia=1}}) instead of "{{vern|golden cicada}}"? Its vernacular name is a literal translation of Chinese 金蟬／金蝉 (jīnchán). I'm not sure which species of Cryptotympana it belongs though. Thanks for taking the time to create entries for vernacular names on Wiktionary. Perhaps someone familiar with Lua could fix this template so that {{vern|[[golden]] [[cicada]]}} would give the desired output as well as the categorization needed. It makes sense for users unfamiliar with taxonomy to pair up {{vern}} and {{taxlink}}. Editors familiar with taxonomy can then check and create entries for vernacular and taxonomic names (when they are free). KevinUp (talk) 05:08, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

I haven't found any evidence that golden cicada is the vernacular name of a species. It is not unusual that a genus should be given a name that applies to some of its species. DCDuring (talk) 12:39, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

As to golden cicada, it might refer to Huechys fusca on Wikispecies.Wikispecies , also known as the black and golden cicada. However, I don't think either name would turn out to be attestable as an English vernacular name of that species. Therefore they probably should not be enclosed in {{vern}}. The translated proverb "the golden cicada sheds its shell" might warrant inclusion as a proverb and golden cicada orchid seems inclusion-worthy. DCDuring (talk) 13:06, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Upon further inspection, the term golden cicada seems to be a direct translation of the Chinese term 金蟬／金蝉 → 金 (“gold”) + 蟬／蝉 (“cicada”) and lacks actual citations in English publications. Interestingly, I found an encyclopedic page for the Chinese term, along with pictures of the golden cicada and its taxonomic name (Cryptotympana atrata) at https://baike.baidu.com/item/金蝉. However, assigned taxonomic names for Chinese entries are often problematic and incorrect, eg. Torreya grandis (Chinese nutmeg yew) was mixed up with Torreya nucifera (Japanese nutmeg yew). This problem is much more prominent in single character Chinese/Japanese entries because it is hard to determine the actual species mentioned in historical literature. This is why I suggested the use of individual links for its definition, eg. [[Chinese]] [[nutmeg yew]] instead of {{vern|Chinese nutmeg yew}}. KevinUp (talk) 16:34, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Note that golden cicada orchid is a direct translation of its Chinese vernacular name 金蟬蘭／金蝉兰 → 金 (“gold”) + 蟬／蝉 (“cicada”) + 蘭／兰 (“orchid”). Same goes for the proverb "the golden cicada sheds its shell" which is translated from 金蟬脫殼／金蝉脱壳. Also, usage of 金蟬／金蝉 (“golden cicada”) in historical Chinese texts is mainly figurative or metaphoric. Not sure whether the species (Cryptotympana atrata) mentioned in this page is correct or not: https://baike.baidu.com/item/金蝉 but according to the Chinese Wikipedia page for Cryptotympana atrata, 紅脈熊蟬 (English Wikipedia page not yet available), the term 金蟬／金蝉 (“literally golden cicada”) appears to refer to the pupa of Cryptotympana atrata which is served as a deep fried dish in Shandong cuisine. KevinUp (talk) 17:09, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Anyway, it's still confusing to click on {{vern|golden cicada orchid}} → golden cicada orchid to find an empty link (no Wikipedia page). Same goes for its taxonomic name, {{taxlink|Chrysoglossum ornatum}} → Chrysoglossum ornatum (no Wikispecies page). Note that a picture of the species: [[File:Chrysoglossum_ornatum_Orchi_4-2011.jpg]] exists at Wikimedia Commons. Another possible solution would be to add another parameter, eg, {{vern|golden cicada orchid|link=bad}}, {{taxlink|Chrysoglossum ornatum|link=bad}} to convert the blue links into red links. KevinUp (talk) 16:34, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

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