Talk:胸当て

Nippo Jisho source?

@Poketalker, any chance you can dig up a link, or at least confirmation, for the Nippo Jisho source?

The KDJ entry on Kotobank states:

むね‐あて【胸当】

〘名〙

① 胸部にあてる鎧(よろい)。胸甲。〔日葡辞書（1603‐04）〕

... but I sure can't find it in the Nippo Jisho version I've found. It should be on this page, but as you can see, we have mune as the eighth entry from the bottom on the left, but no muneate. The printing quality wasn't very good, and it has mostly defeated Google's OCR, so searching digitally doesn't work very well. I'm not about to visually go through the whole thing on the off chance that some other entry might include muneate in a sample phrase.

If you can't find anything, maybe we should remove the KDJ's claim from our entry?

Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 20:51, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

@Eirikr: if the Paris edition of Nippo Jisho in Google Books does not have that term, know that @Bendono created the {{R:Nippo Jisho}} template. Bendono created usage examples from the Hōyaku Nippo Jisho (Nippo Jisho translated into Japanese) by Tadao Doi (1980). If you can buy that book (1995 edition, it's pricey!), it might help you a lot. That's what I said about if anyone has that version with the chiauayafuru entry.

The {{R:Nippo Jisho}} that Bendono created should be changed to {{R:Nippo Jisho 1980}}. ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 23:32, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

@Eirikr: The unabridged edition of the KDJ (Nikkoku, actually) gives another quotation for the first sense:

＊浄瑠璃・仮名手本忠臣蔵（1748）一一「鎖袴に黒羽織忠義の胸当、打揃ふ」

Indicentally, the full entry is also available here.

By the way, User:Wyang/zh-def may be a good way to reduce the number of floating elements on the right side of the page. Just move the images and the Wikipedia box "into" the respective senses. --Dine2016 (talk) 08:35, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

@Dine2016:

Re: User:Wyang/zh-def, I'm uncomfortable using a zh- template in JA entries, and I'm uncomfortable using userspace code in mainspace entries. I'm also unhappy with how cryptic it is -- it's not clear how to specify POS, the examples include unknown items like mw, which seems to specify some kind of classifier (?), and the wikicode is ... hard on the eyes, which might be unavoidable. That said, I like the general idea.

I wonder if there might not be a simpler approach that just wraps a given POS section of normal wikicode (or multiple POS sections) and reworks the rendering? That would be much easier for editors to use, and much easier to roll out as we wouldn't have to completely rewrite existing wikicode in entries.

Separately to the wikicode, I notice that User:Wyang/zh-def doesn't seem to play very well with mobile -- none of the collapsible sections are collapsed, which partially does away with its main use case (presenting a slimmer version of the info). However, even on mobile, the sense-specific info is at least kept together, so that's still good. I also notice that the "new code" and "current code" examples at the bottom of User:Wyang/zh-def don't use the newer {{synonyms}} and {{antonyms}}, which do a better job of keeping syns and ants tied to the appropriate senses.

I don't see any examples of how this collapsible structure would handle images and WP links. I also don't see anything obvious for handling these in Module:User:Wyang/zh-def. Do you have any mock-ups?

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:28, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

@Eirikr: I'm sorry for the confusion caused. I should probably have said "a format like User:Wyang/zh-def (on the user's side, not necessarily on the editor's side)" instead of "User:Wyang/zh-def". And we should of course defer until the mobile view fully supports collapsing. As for images and WP:

1. [verb]western-style armor for the chest: a breastplate[syn.]▼

   Synonym胸甲 (きょうこう, kyōkō)

   Image

   

   胸当て (muneate, munaate): a western-style breastplate.

   See also

   Breastplate on Wikipedia.Wikipedia

--Dine2016 (talk) 02:34, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

• I like that, thank you for knocking that together.

From a simple usability perspective (ease of use for other editors), I wonder still about the possibility of wrapping existing wikicode.  :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 04:43, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

For reference, here is the full text from Nippo Jisho, including notes:

Muneate. ムネアテ (胸当) 麻、木綿、その他の物でできている（防具や衣服の）前当て、あるいは、胸掛け。

1) 原文はPorta, ou peito de pano, canga, ou de qualquer outra cousa. 日西辞書はPuerta, o pecho de paño, manta, o de qualquier ôtra cosa. とそのまま逐語訳しているだけであり、また、日仏辞書はOuverture, ou devant d'une étoffe, d'un manteau, ou d'un autre objet. と訳していて、適訳とは言えない。日葡原文中のPortaは、ここでは「前面」の意か。また、原文中のcangaは、「木綿・綿布」の意。（Momenの注）

Bendono (talk) 22:49, 14 November 2019 (UTC)