Talk:壅泥

Asking for suggestion

@Justinrleung Hey, maybe you have a better suggestion here. So I noticed while exploring Taiwanese Hakka online sources that a lot of Taiwanese Hakka words exist everywhere else except Zhao'an, like this entry. In other entries, I end up listing all places, like "Sixian, Hailu, Dabu and Raoping Hakka", which looks ugly, imo. Maybe you have a suggestion how to show this info? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:38, 22 March 2022 (UTC)--Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:38, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: I don't have a better solution than just to be vague and call it "Taiwanese Hakka". Zhao'an Hakka is the most divergent variety, so it's expected to have a lot of differences from the other four. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 14:46, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Maybe it would be possible for us to have the same thing with Taiwanese Hokkien as Taiwanese Hakka? Listing the other Taiwanese Hakka dialects in the pronunciation without the IPA yet (if that's either inconvenient now or lacks data) in Phak-fa-su, so at least it's listed in the Pronunciation section? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 22:33, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: You mean in the notes (|h_note=)? Ideally, we should set up the module to allow the other pronunciations, but I currently don't have the time to set it up. A few of us have also been thinking of whether we should switch over to the Taiwanese Hakka Romanization System even for Sixian so that everything is more consistent. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:07, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Yeah I know that's ideal, but maybe something like what we have now with the Tainan dialect, the Sanxia dialect, the Lukang dialect, for example, we have romanizations for them, but not the IPA. Maybe that first for these Hakka dialects. Would that be fast to code? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 07:07, 23 March 2022 (UTC)--Mar vin kaiser (talk) 07:07, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: So are you envisioning something like |h=pfs=yûng-nài;hrs=h:rhungˋ nai/d:rhung+ neˇ/r:rhiungˇ ni? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 19:53, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Ok, so this is the first time I've sorta seriously looked at Hakka romanization, and I didn't realize it was a bit messy. It seems like the issue with the Taiwanese Hakka Romanization System is that the diacritics mark actual tone contours and not tone categories (not sure if my terms are correct), so theoretically we'd have to have six separate pronunciations written for every word, even if the pronunciation is identical for all dialects (at least for consonants and vowels). Has this issue been discussed before? Because what would be convenient would be just one romanization system for all where we can put one romanization for all dialects (at least for a lot of words). --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 22:50, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I've been thinking about it and my ideas are: 1. What if we use the Guangdong romanization system for everything? It seems flexible enough to accommodate all the Taiwanese dialects, it seems. 2. Or maybe we could use Taiwanese Hakka Romanization System but put tone numbers instead? Because seeing six separate romanizations would look so bulky. 3. Could phak-fa-su be written for the other Taiwanese dialects? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 23:18, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: I don't think using Guangdong Romanization for everything would be appropriate. I've been thinking about something along the lines of your second idea, though we need think whether it would work because Hailu has 7 tones while Sixian and Meixian has 6 tones. I don't think there's a good way to extend PFS with the ch vs. c distinction in Hailu (and other varieties) or the extra tone that Hailu has. If the MoE Hakka dictionary is happy with showing all the varieties, I think we should just do what they do, even though it'd be bulky. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 23:47, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Oh, another option would be using 台湾客家语音标系统, the Hakka version of the Taiwanese Language Phonetic Alphabet. I'm mainly looking at the Chinese Wikipedia article for it, and it seems like it uses tone numbers in superscript. And it uses the same numbers as Taiwanese Hokkien, 1-8 with 6 missing. It seems to accommodate all Taiwanese Hakka dialects. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 03:16, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: I'm not sure if it works well with other varieties since it only seems to be used with Sixian and Hailu. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:26, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Oh yeah, it doesn't have some sounds used in Zhao'an. Another option is to take the Taiwanese Hakka Romanization System, and use the tone numbers system used in 台湾客家语音标系统. Now that definitely would be able to transcribe all Taiwanese Hakka dialects. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 03:49, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: I'm not sure if Dabu's 33 vs. 35 can be captured with this. I feel like just sticking with the Taiwanese Hakka Romanization System would be fine lol. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:57, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Isn't that just tone sandhi? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 04:00, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: No, it's a morphological tone change, kind of like the tone change to tone 2 or tone 1 in Cantonese. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:07, 24 March 2022 (UTC)