Talk:國家社會主義
Add topicLatest comment: 14 days ago by TongcyDai in topic Inferring Pronunciations
Inferring Pronunciations
[edit]@Justinrleung What do you think of the recent edits here, pronunciations seem inferred. Mar vin kaiser (talk) 13:07, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- @TongcyDai Do you have a source for all those readings? I have a feeling some of the tone sandhi/consonant mutation patterns aren't right. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 14:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung For Hokkien, this term could be split into 2+4 or treated as a whole (maybe the former would be more common). Pronunciation for Puxian was recorded by a Puxian native speaker. And I have asked some Eastern Min speakers, both /kuoʔ²¹ ka⁵⁵ sia²⁴² ui²⁴² t͡suo⁵⁵ ŋiɛ²⁴²/ and /kuoʔ²¹ ka⁵⁵ sia²⁴² ui²⁴² ʒuo⁵⁵ ŋiɛ²⁴²/ seem to work. TongcyDai (talk) 15:15, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- @TongcyDai: Thanks. What about Hakka and Teochew? — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 15:32, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- @TongcyDai: And also, I'm concerned about having both readings of 國家 here for Xiamen - are they all valid? — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 15:35, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung 閩南方言大詞典 P. 825 lists both kok-ka and kok-ke. But according to some native speakers, kok-ka sounds more formal, while kok-ke is more like a 俗讀 which is "扶正-ed" as a proper reading, or it is indeed used in the 白讀-dominant region (so using kok-ka would be safer in this case). Teochew pronunciation has also been confirmed by native speakers. In Teochew, ga1 is rarely used (except for 家己), so gê1 is correct; and for most dialects in Teochew, 陰平本調=陰平變調, so I guess the one now we are using is alright. Hakka pronunciations are based on each parts, and 家 in Sixian should read as 本調 in this compound according to one fluent speaker. TongcyDai (talk) 16:26, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- @TongcyDai: I would suggest not having all regional readings for Hokkien. Probably stick with varieties you know / have access to. If we don't have a source for Hailu, again, we should not provide the reading. As a rule, only add pronunciations when we have evidence, in order of preference: permanently recorded material in print, video/audio, speaker-consultants. (Speaker-consultants are lower here simply because we don't have access to them all the time for verification.) — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 17:08, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung: You're absolutely right. I had included these readings mainly because this term is a more formal/literary expression commonly used across Sinitic varieties, where pronunciations tend to follow regular patterns. Regarding Eastern Min, while I know the correct pronunciation, I could use some help with the proper input/IPA notation (社會 in the two pronunciations mentioned above should be both ²¹ in fast speech, not sure if we can handle that). As for Hailu Hakka, I did verify with fluent speakers that our current input is correct - I hadn't mentioned this earlier because the tone sandhi occurs within each component of the compound, which I assumed you'd be familiar with. Thank you again for the reminder. TongcyDai (talk) 03:33, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- @TongcyDai: Thanks. For Eastern Min, is the 21 tone for 社會 because they are in the middle, or is there something else? 21 for 會 might be expected, but 社 seems to usually sandhi to 53 (according to our module). It seems like the tone sandhi is too much to handle for the module at this point. They should definitely not be fully hyphenated, but even then, the last four syllables being hyphenated breaks the tone sandhi part of the module. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 04:43, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung: I believe the ²¹ tones occur in fast (and natural) speech. When read carefully, it would be split into two parts, with /sia⁵³ ui²⁴² tsuo⁵⁵ ŋiɛ²⁴²/. As for hyphenation, I'm not entirely certain about the orthographic rules for each lect - even for Hokkien, the TL standards used by MoE differ from the traditional conventions followed by POJ users. However, I can at least confirm that in Hokkien, the use of hyphens doesn't completely align with whether tone sandhi occurs or not. Perhaps we could introduce additional notation to more precisely indicate how the pronunciation should change. TongcyDai (talk) 04:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- It's mentioned in WT:CDO that: "In fast speech, the first two syllables are reduced to a half dark departing tone (²¹), and the remaining two syllables undergo two-syllable tone sandhi." However, our module doesn't seem to implement this phonological change (even in 社會主義). TongcyDai (talk) 04:43, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- @TongcyDai: I see. Do the people you're consulting agree that it is possible to say 53 242 rather than 21 21 here? — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 05:37, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung: Yes, and some speakers actually find this reading (53 242) more natural than the four-syllable pattern. TongcyDai (talk) 16:10, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- @TongcyDai: I see. Do the people you're consulting agree that it is possible to say 53 242 rather than 21 21 here? — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 05:37, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- It's mentioned in WT:CDO that: "In fast speech, the first two syllables are reduced to a half dark departing tone (²¹), and the remaining two syllables undergo two-syllable tone sandhi." However, our module doesn't seem to implement this phonological change (even in 社會主義). TongcyDai (talk) 04:43, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung: I believe the ²¹ tones occur in fast (and natural) speech. When read carefully, it would be split into two parts, with /sia⁵³ ui²⁴² tsuo⁵⁵ ŋiɛ²⁴²/. As for hyphenation, I'm not entirely certain about the orthographic rules for each lect - even for Hokkien, the TL standards used by MoE differ from the traditional conventions followed by POJ users. However, I can at least confirm that in Hokkien, the use of hyphens doesn't completely align with whether tone sandhi occurs or not. Perhaps we could introduce additional notation to more precisely indicate how the pronunciation should change. TongcyDai (talk) 04:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- @TongcyDai: Thanks. For Eastern Min, is the 21 tone for 社會 because they are in the middle, or is there something else? 21 for 會 might be expected, but 社 seems to usually sandhi to 53 (according to our module). It seems like the tone sandhi is too much to handle for the module at this point. They should definitely not be fully hyphenated, but even then, the last four syllables being hyphenated breaks the tone sandhi part of the module. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 04:43, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung: You're absolutely right. I had included these readings mainly because this term is a more formal/literary expression commonly used across Sinitic varieties, where pronunciations tend to follow regular patterns. Regarding Eastern Min, while I know the correct pronunciation, I could use some help with the proper input/IPA notation (社會 in the two pronunciations mentioned above should be both ²¹ in fast speech, not sure if we can handle that). As for Hailu Hakka, I did verify with fluent speakers that our current input is correct - I hadn't mentioned this earlier because the tone sandhi occurs within each component of the compound, which I assumed you'd be familiar with. Thank you again for the reminder. TongcyDai (talk) 03:33, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- @TongcyDai: I would suggest not having all regional readings for Hokkien. Probably stick with varieties you know / have access to. If we don't have a source for Hailu, again, we should not provide the reading. As a rule, only add pronunciations when we have evidence, in order of preference: permanently recorded material in print, video/audio, speaker-consultants. (Speaker-consultants are lower here simply because we don't have access to them all the time for verification.) — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 17:08, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung 閩南方言大詞典 P. 825 lists both kok-ka and kok-ke. But according to some native speakers, kok-ka sounds more formal, while kok-ke is more like a 俗讀 which is "扶正-ed" as a proper reading, or it is indeed used in the 白讀-dominant region (so using kok-ka would be safer in this case). Teochew pronunciation has also been confirmed by native speakers. In Teochew, ga1 is rarely used (except for 家己), so gê1 is correct; and for most dialects in Teochew, 陰平本調=陰平變調, so I guess the one now we are using is alright. Hakka pronunciations are based on each parts, and 家 in Sixian should read as 本調 in this compound according to one fluent speaker. TongcyDai (talk) 16:26, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung For Hokkien, this term could be split into 2+4 or treated as a whole (maybe the former would be more common). Pronunciation for Puxian was recorded by a Puxian native speaker. And I have asked some Eastern Min speakers, both /kuoʔ²¹ ka⁵⁵ sia²⁴² ui²⁴² t͡suo⁵⁵ ŋiɛ²⁴²/ and /kuoʔ²¹ ka⁵⁵ sia²⁴² ui²⁴² ʒuo⁵⁵ ŋiɛ²⁴²/ seem to work. TongcyDai (talk) 15:15, 5 December 2024 (UTC)