Talk:叵羅
@ZxxZxxZ Could you help with this Iranian etymology? This word is found in many poems of the Tang dynasty, and referred to a shallow, wide-mouthed drinking vessel. It is said to have come from Iranian padrōd ("bowl"?) or Sogdian patrōδ. These forms look like Sanskrit पात्र (pātra) to me; could the Iranian forms be a cognate or borrowing from the Sanskrit one? What are the native-script forms? Thanks! Wyang (talk) 09:49, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
- I only found Sogdian ptrwδ- (patrōδ, “to grow”), I couldn't find similar terms (e.g. pātrōδ) in Sogdian or corresponding forms in Middle Persian (*padrōd) and Persian (*p/badrōy). But take a look at باده. --Z 14:10, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
- FWIW, it's not related to Sanskrit पात्र (pātra) (from Proto-Indo-Iranian *páHtram), which is cognate to Persian پاس (pâs, “watch, guard”). —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 02:01, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
- @ZxxZxxZ, Aryamanarora Thanks! ptrwδ- indeed means "to grow", per English index to the Dictionaries of Manichaean and Christian Sogdian. I'd be interested in read Sims-Williams' original passage on this word though, to check if there were other senses of the word which are potentially relevant. I also found reference to the Sogdian in Рахмат-наме (pp. 222), but it seems to say the same thing.
- The Chinese source pointing to the above Iranian words is:
- 余欣（2012）．屈支灌与游仙枕——龟兹异物及其文化想像．《龟兹学研究》．第五辑．
- and the relevant passage can be viewed here. The key paragraph is:
颇罗，是一种敞口、浅腹、圈足的圆形酒器，亦写作“叵罗”、“破罗”，皆中古译语一音之转。据粟特学家研究，此词源出伊朗语padrōd，似指“碗”。在古希腊语中，其转写形式为φáλη，意为“碗”、“杯”[58]。有一，上镌粟特文patrōδ，可供参证[59]。其实这个刻有粟特文铭文patrōδ的杯状银碗，正是汉文中的银颇罗。
[58] 笔者曾就此问题求教于同事西方古典学专家张巍教授，他指出φáλη的早期拼写形式应该是φιáλη，在古希腊语中正是意指敞口圆形酒器。
[59] 里夫什茨为薛爱华（E.H. Schafer）著《康国金桃》俄文译本第459-460页所加注释，转引自蔡鸿生：《唐代九姓胡与突厥文化》，中华书局，1998年，第12页。
- Translating to:
Pō-luó, is an open-mouthed, shallow, round-bottomed (?) drinking vessel, also written as pǒ-luó, pò-luó. These are all variant transcriptions of a medieval foreign term. According to studies on the Sogdian language, this is derived from Iranian (Persian? vague term) padrōd, perhaps meaning "bowl". In Ancient Greek, it was transcribed as φáλη, meaning "bowl", "cup"[58]. There was one which had the Sogdian word patrōδ engraved on it, which may serve to illustrate this[59]. This silver cup-like bowl with the Sogdian engraving, was exactly what the "silver pō-luó" in ancient Chinese records was referring to.
[58] The author (i.e. I) consulted colleague Professor Zhang Wei (an expert in Western Classical Studies) about this, and he pointed out that the earlier form of φáλη was φιáλη, which indeed in Ancient Greek referred to a round, open-mouthed wine vessel.
[59] Note on page 459-460, Ливщиц's Russian translation of Schafer's The Golden Peaches of Samarkand: A Study of T'ang Exotics; secondarily referenced in Cai Hongsheng (1998), The Nine Barbarian Families of the Tang Dynasty and Turkic Culture, Zhonghua Book Company, pp. 12.
- Now that I think about it, this description seems to be a mix-up of etymologies.
- I'm not sure how Iranian padrōd, Sogdian patrōδ and Ancient Greek φáλη can be related. The Ancient Greek word referenced was almost definitely φιάλη (phiálē, “cup; bowl”), related to Middle Persian pygʾl (*paygāl, “cup, goblet”), whence Persian پیاله (piyâle, “glass cup or chalice; beaker”).
- In fact, Khotanese phalau (“flat dish; bowl”) would provide a much better etymology IMO, but no one seems to have mentioned it in the literature, lol. Wyang (talk) 10:11, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
- @Wyang: Great work on the etymology! I should have known, since we use प्याला (pyālā) too! (or we did before some dolt came up with गिलास (gilās)) Anyway, I think a Proto-Iranian term can definitely be reconstructed (I found Sogdian ptγʾδ as well; maybe this is the mystery word?), and perhaps so can Proto-Indo-Iranian if I can find a Sanskrit cognate. I feel like this kind of term has to come ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *peh₃- (“to drink”) (perhaps that's where the Greek word came from? I know little about the European side of PIE though). —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 22:38, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
- @Aryamanarora Haha. Thanks for the Hindi word. The relationship between these words is not quite clear to me, but I've expanded the etymology a bit to include them. Wyang (talk) 07:56, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
- @Wyang: Great work on the etymology! I should have known, since we use प्याला (pyālā) too! (or we did before some dolt came up with गिलास (gilās)) Anyway, I think a Proto-Iranian term can definitely be reconstructed (I found Sogdian ptγʾδ as well; maybe this is the mystery word?), and perhaps so can Proto-Indo-Iranian if I can find a Sanskrit cognate. I feel like this kind of term has to come ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *peh₃- (“to drink”) (perhaps that's where the Greek word came from? I know little about the European side of PIE though). —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 22:38, 17 October 2017 (UTC)