Talk:交趾

Claim in etymology section

@LlywelynII Hello, you put "In fact, an early form of the name Giao Chỉ seems to have been used by the native states for the area around the Red River delta prior to the Chinese conquest." in the etymology section of this entry back in 2015. Do you have any evidence that supports the claim that 交趾 was originally an endonym instead of a Chinese exonym? RcAlex36 (talk) 12:56, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Sure. If there wasn't a source provided at the time of the edit, you can start with Jiaozhi. If you've got some issue with the scholarly section below the "Chinese folk etymology" laundry list, I'm not sure finding the exact source I was looking at at the time is going to matter to you. Presumably you have your heart set on one of those folk etymologies.

On the other hand, given how convoluted the whole thing is, simply doing a Uncertain. See discussion at... here and linking to the Wiki treatment is fair enough. — LlywelynII 17:36, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

@LlywelynII: I have no idea why you assume I already have my heart set on any particular folk etymology. You're admittedly a rather difficult editor to work with your aggressiveness. Scholarly sources don't seem to discuss the origins of the second syllable 趾 (zhǐ), and I'm not sure if the second syllable is part of any early autonym. Moreover, I'm also not sure if we could localize any early form of 交趾 to the Red River Delta, given the scholarly sources don't seem to suggest so, and it is not clear where 交趾 in early Chinese texts referred to exactly. RcAlex36 (talk) 18:35, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Although where your (similarly inaccurate) bias against me came from I couldn't say, my comment above is clearly based on your "do you have any evidence ... instead of a Chinese exonym". I'm not even saying you're wrong, but you're very clearly of the opinion that it is one and that claims it ain't are suspect and need specific sourcing. Not saying that's wrong either. It's just clearly where you're coming from and has nothing to do with me or any (mis)perceived "aggressiveness". (As opposed to the actually aggressive "give me any evidence", with the implicit threat of otherwise blanking content instead of investigating the claim itself in any way other than demanding a fetch quest. You're within your rights and it's always better to provide sourcing, sure, especially for unusual claims. It's still actually aggressive, and aggressively worded, if that's in any way a concern you have about discussion here. Neutral phrasing would be something closer to "Do you remember where you saw that, because I've been looking..." &c.)

The linked article isn't explicit about it, but that character sounded different in Old Chinese and the reconstructed pronunciation we list matches several of the Australasian terms it provides. Again, simply replacing the current treatment here with a link to the Wiki article might be preferable given (a) the mess involved since you're right that the Chinese referent moved and (b) the amount of sourcing and conjecture involved. If you're genuinely curious, though, you can look through Baiyue for why a placename originally somewhere around Anhui or Jiangxi might have ended up in Vietnam entirely naturally. — LlywelynII 18:56, 13 September 2024 (UTC)