Talk:ἀπέταλος

What to do with this entry

@0DF, Sarri.greek In my opinion, all the content should be transferred to ἀπέτηλος, since that's the attested spelling. This page should be either moved to Reconstruction namespace or simply deleted. If kept as a Reconstruction: page, it should just be called a variant form of ἀπέτηλος and provided as the source of Latin apetalus (assuming that is attested). However, it's also entirely possible that the -tal- spelling was coined directly in Latin (if the Latin is attested) or Modern Greek, under the influence of the base word petalum/πέταλο (pétalo). In that case, this page should be deleted because this form cannot be shown to have ever existed in Ancient Greek. I guess the primary question is, when is the spelling ἀπέταλος first attested in Greek, before or after 1453? —Mahāgaja · talk 10:52, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

@Mahāgaja: Send to RFV? 0DF (talk) 11:26, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

@0DF: Good idea, go for it! —Mahāgaja · talk 11:32, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

@Mahāgaja: Done and done. 0DF (talk) 14:29, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you @Mahagaja Sorry that I cannot participate to discussions, as I am unwell. The second quotation is for a diffferent lemma, the comparative adjective. Both authors w:Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus Gaetulicus (consul 26) and w:Antipater of Thessalonica are of the Roman period, thus Koine. One last point, although i know that en.wikt would not care for such an opinion: why not *ἀπέταλος or *xxxx (Ancient Greek) or something, @Benwing2, I will not be able to be present. Please, if you can, take care of Medieval Greek. I might have some time, to correct a few things. Thank you and goodbye. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 11:43, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

PS, I forgot: @Mahagaja ἀπέταλος is Katharevousa lemma. (see refs at απέταλος). ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 11:56, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek: Would giving this form an entry at Reconstruction:Ancient Greek/ἀπέταλος be the kind of solution you’re looking for?
I’m sorry to hear you’re unwell. I hope you get well soon. 0DF (talk) 19:04, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank yo uall. Sorry, cannot type.. Reconstruction:Ancient Greek = * asterisc. WHY complicate titles. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 19:07, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek: I agree that that’s a long title, but typing, e.g. {{m|grc|*ἀπέταλος}}, will automatically generate that preamble for you: *ἀπέταλος (*apétalos). 0DF (talk) 19:12, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, Reconstruction:Ancient Greek/ἀπέταλος is the only name this can have if it's a reconstruction. The question is, do we assume that Latin apetalus was borrowed from a word that existed in Attic or Koine but happens not to be attested, or do we think that it was Latin speakers themselves who changed the third vowel of ἀπέτηλος (apétēlos) to a, since they were already aware of the word petalum and how it was spelled/pronounced? —Mahāgaja · talk 19:30, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

@Mahāgaja: That is something I intend to research. 0DF (talk) 19:48, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek So sorry to hear that! :( ... I hope you feel better. I have been meaning to get to renaming Byzantine Greek -> Medieval Greek and split it off as a separate language, let me see if I can do that today or tomorrow. Benwing2 (talk) 19:06, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

@Benwing2: The discussion at Wiktionary:Requests for moves, mergers and splits#Medieval Greek from Ancient Greek has not concluded: I’m still waiting for a response from Sarri.greek to the comment and questions I wrote her on the 24th of March. Please read that, because I’m sure you’ll agree that we should have clarity on the points I raised before proceeding with the split. I would never dream of doing anything so hypocritical as to hurry her for a response, but we should indeed receive a satisfactory response from her before proceeding. As to the naming issue, her only reason for favouring “Medi(a)eval Greek”, AFAICT, is that Holton et al. call it that in their 2019 Cambridge Grammar of Medieval and Early Modern Greek; however, I’ve already said that their reason for their choice is pretty spurious, and η Δις Κατερίνα Σαρρή has also yet to respond to any of the arguments I made in favour of Byzantine Greek and in opposition to Medi(a)eval Greek (although those weren’t directed toward her specifically). I would hope that our treatment of Byzantine Greek would be decided on the intrinsic merits of our proposals — being guided by the clearest, most coherent, and best reasoned principles — and not determined by the stamina and longevity of those who propose them. Truth be told, and with all due respect to her, I had expected better arguments from a philosophy graduate. 0DF (talk) 19:49, 19 June 2024 (UTC)