Talk:သရဳရံ

RFV discussion: May–October 2021

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သရဳရံ

This is not a Mon word as claimed. It was created as a 'Mon Pali' word. Wondering of the existence of a 'Mon Pali' language had been established, but also worried that the entry might simply be deleted as nonsense, I split off a Pali entry for it. To my horror, I saw that the language has been changed to 'Mon' and that it had been copied to the Chinese Wiktionary.

I have copied the sound clip to the Latin script main entry for the Pali non-lemma, sarīraṃ.

The Mon Wiktionary lists the language of this word only as မန်ပါဠိ ("Mon Pali"). It is a genuine Pali word, with meaning as described. @咽頭べさ, Octahedron80, Sayonzei --RichardW57 (talk) 21:09, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

I found သရဳရ /sa.rɔe.raʔ/ that is actual Mon word instead. Indeed, it is derived from Pali. But သရဳရံ does not happen to be Mon; it is just Pali "sarīraṃ" in Mon variation. If သရဳရံ was Mon (another word), it would read as /sa.rɔe.rɔ/ or /sa.rɔe.rɔm/. I can't find anywhere here. --Octahedron80 (talk) 00:10, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Hello@RichardW57The term သရဳရ is Old Mon Pali, both the term သရဳရ and the term သရဳရံ have the same meaning.

1. Old Mon Pali သရဳရ
2. Modern Mon Pali spelling သရဳရံ
3. Mon language ခန္ဓကာယ or ခန္ဓ

--Music writer Dr.Intobesa of Japanese idol NMB48 and BNK48. (talk) 06:02, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

That doesn't help the implied question, which is whether the word is or has been part of the Mon language (not including the Old Mon language). It is rather misleading to say that Pali သရဳရ (sarīra) and သရဳရံ (sarīraṃ) have the same meaning; they are different ways of naming the same word, but one is a bare stem and vocative singular, and other is the nominative and accusative singular (ပဌမာ ဝိဘတ္တိ + ဒုတိယာ ဝိဘတ္တိ). Perhaps you have some fact that will help us answer the implied question. --RichardW57 (talk) 10:22, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Mon writing is complex and must be written with caution, some Mon words are not the same as writing and speaking.

• Example

1. Writing = သဂြာ care must be taken not to confuse the term သကြား with the term သဂြာ.
2. Speaking = ဟဂြာ
3. Mon Pali = သက္ခရာ care must be taken not to confuse the term အက္ခရာ with the term သက္ခရာ.
4. Translate = Sugar

You can ask me independently what questions you want to know, but we do not like it when our Mon alphabet is called the Burmese alphabet thanks.--Music writer Dr.Intobesa of Japanese idol NMB48 and BNK48. (talk) 06:02, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

FYI: Wiktionary treats old language and modern language separately, as they have different codes, (kinda) different spellings and different usages. Therefore, Old English/(Modern) English, Old French/(Modern) French, etc, must be split as well as Old Mon/(Modern) Mon. (The Old Mon language is also the ancestor of Nyah Kur language AFAIK.) Do not mix them into one. For Pali, whatever scripts they are spelled with, they are still Pali (not becoming Mon, unless they are borrowed). --Octahedron80 (talk) 10:37, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

PS I don't mind if there are some Myanmar-only or Thailand-only terms. They will happen some time, like English US & UK.

We aren't calling the Mon alphabet the Burmese alphabet, we're calling the common script the Burmese script, which should be interpreted as 'the script used for the Burmese language'. The Burmese language is the main language that uses that script. Now, it is a bit of a stretch to claim that some of the writing systems that use that script 'Mymr' in the ISO script are truly the same script as Burmese, but the differences between the Burmese and Mon alphabets are not great enough to claim they are different scripts. I'd prefer to call the common script the Mon script, but I don't think we would win that battle. --RichardW57 (talk) 11:22, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Hi@RichardW57,It would be difficult for non-Mon people to distinguish this term as some Mon terms are so complex.

• Example

1. ကရေင် Karen
2. ကြေင် Eugenia

These ကရေင် and ကြေင် sounds the same but have different meanings and the writing is not very different.

1. ကြုတ် Mango or Chinese

The term ကြုတ် is spelled the same, but with different meanings if the word ကြုတ် is translated 100% as Mango in English it is a misinterpretation some languages in the world are not 100% translatable if you want to translate the word ကြုတ် 100% into English as Mango, it would be correct to write သတ်ကြုတ်.

• Some Thai and Mon words have the same pronunciation but different races

1. มะนาว
2. Writing ပနဴ
3. Speaking မနဴ

The ပနဴ and ผลมะนาว terms sound the same they have the same meaning but different alphabets.

1. Translate (lime)

• Some Chinese and Mon words have the same pronunciation it also has the same meaning.

1. 哥哥 VS ကေကေ

The 哥哥 and ကေကေ terms sound the same they have the same meaning but different alphabets this 哥哥 VS ကေကေ term is a cute family term.

1. Translate Thai พี่ๆ
2. Translate English Elder or brothers(This 哥哥ကေကေ term can be translated 100% for Thai but not 100% for English)I have traveled to many countries around the world and learned their languages thank.--Music writer Dr.Intobesa of Japanese idol NMB48 and BNK48. (talk) 14:40, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

• RFV-resolved. "Mon Pali" is not a valid header, and this is not a Mon word, so its current treatment as a Pali word should suffice. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 22:09, 8 October 2021 (UTC)