Talk:भगौना

Improvements to the etymology

Hi @AryamanA, @Svartava. There are a few more things that I think could be added to the etymology. I wanted to know your opinions and clear up my uncertainties.

1. Wouldn't it make more sense for an Apabhramsa *भागओणअ (bhāgaoṇaa), with a retroflex nasal, to be hypothesized, rather than *भागओनअ (bhāgaonaa), with a dental nasal?
2. Derivation from बहुगुणा f (bahuguṇā) is unlikely because it is a feminine word, while भगौना (bhagaunā) is masculine. What do you think about derivation from बहुगुण m (bahuguṇa) + Middle Indo-Aryan -𑀓- (-ka-)? This whole theory seems doubtful to me, though.
3. Suresh Pant also gives बहुगुना as an intermediate stage between बहुगुणा (bahuguṇā) and भगौना (bhagaunā). Should this be added to the etymology? If yes, then what language is this word? Hindi? Old Hindi? Apabhramsa...?
4. Derivation solely from भिगोना (bhigonā) is also very unlikely. V.S. Agrawala (check references) writes “अब कहीं-कहीं ‘भिगौना’ (अर्थात्‌ वह बरतन जिसमें कोई वस्तु भिगोई जाय) कहने लगे हैं।” This means that भिगौना (bhigaunā) is a newly arisen form, and also a less popular one. I personally have never heard it.

BTW, how common is this word in your region? In my house, I hear this being used a lot more than पतीला (patīlā). Does your family prefer saying भगौना (bhagaunā) or पतीला (patīlā)? — सौम्य (talk) 12:27, 25 January 2025 (UTC)

@सौम्य: Hi, thanks for the extremely well-researched entry.

• Since the etymology is uncertain, in this case it looks good to have all the sourced theories and possibilities written down in the entry as it is currently.
• I think न ~ ण isn't much problem because it both dental and retroflex nasals do occur in Apabhramsa words, e.g. some dialects like Kāśmīrī Apabhramsa does have dental न occuring frequenty.
• *भागद्रोण (bhāgadroṇa) would generally lose the -g- in such inheritances but I suppose that is also optimizable if we consider it to be a related word *भाग्यद्रोण (bhāgyadroṇa) which would cause the -g- to be retained (it probably sounds weird because of being used to भाग्य (bhāgya, “luck”) but it could work by extension भाग्य (bhāgya, “to be shared or divided; *part/share/portion”)).
• The degemination of -dd- < (word medial) -dr- is not so problematic as seen in few other words like चउगुण (caüguṇa), the MIA word from चत्वारिंशत् (catvāriṃśat) would have degeminated the cluster resulting from -tv- at some point to give Hindi descendant चालीस (cālīs).
• The origin from बहुगुण (bahuguṇa) + Middle Indo-Aryan -𑀓- (-ka-) (the optimized version of what is given in the source) is a little phonologically problematic because of the -g- persisting through inheritance but it could be explained by sporadic gemination (which seems quite uncommon as I have seen till now, it is a weak possibility in the lack of too many examples) or perhaps due to reinforcement due to गुण (guṇa) whose descendants continue to be very productive in Hindi, e.g. the formation दोगुना (dogunā) ~ दुगुना (dugunā) ~ दुगना (dugnā) seems to be a more common word than the inherited दूना (dūnā); also -g- seems to have slightly better chances of persisting because we have non-borrowed examples like मगर (magar), लोग (log), etc. so the possibility is worth to be listed in the current state of uncertain etymology as I said above.

I'm from Jabalpur and I've heard भगौना (bhagaunā) more commonly, पतीला (patīlā) is a bit rare but I hear it more in idiomatic expressions पतीला लगाना (patīlā lagānā, “to cover, obstruct, block”). BTW @सौम्य do you want to join WT:Discord server? It would be nice to have you there. Svārtava (tɕ) 14:43, 25 January 2025 (UTC)

@Svartava: Brilliant! Thank you so much for this insightful feedback!

It looks like I am banned from the Discord server. The thing is, I had joined it last year, but then my account got hacked and shared inappropriate links on every server I was in, because of which I got banned from this server and some others as well. I never tried joining this server again until now and it says the link is expired. — सौम्य (talk) 08:31, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

@सौम्य, Svartava: Very nice entry. Not totally convinced by any of the etymologies tbh; a compound with द्रोण (droṇa) makes sense semantically but loss of -dd- is still unusual (and why is -g- retained if not geminate?). Do you know of any cognates? I'll also look.

I guess at home we say बर्तन (bartan) or, much less commonly, पतीला (patīlā). Never heard this word before! —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 23:01, 25 January 2025 (UTC)

@AryamanA, @Svartava!! Check this out! भारतीय भाषा कोश has, in a respective manner, बो॑हगुन, भगुणें, बोग्नो, भगोणी, पोगिणि and बोगुणि listed as the Kashmiri, Konkani, Bengali, Telugu, Tamil and Kannada equivalents of भगौना. I know nothing about these languages so I'll leave further investigation upto you. सौम्य (talk) 08:34, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

Pinging @Kutchkutch, Pulimaiyi for more on the cognates and etymology. Svārtava (tɕ) 09:08, 26 January 2025 (UTC)