Talk:क़ादियान

Name

@Word0151. Unless you have some sort of prejudice against the Urdu language, I don't get why think it's merely "my theory" when that is literally the case. See this picture of Qadian railway station which shows the name in English, Hindi, Punjabi, and Urdu. The Urdu name is قادِیان (qādiyān), the Hindi name is कादियां (kādiyā̃), and the Punjabi name is ਕਾਦੀਆਂ (kādīā̃). Now, also search the term "क़ादियान" on Google and tell me what kind of websites pop up. They're all pretty much related to the Ahmadiya community – who's preferred language is Urdu, whereas searching "कादियां" returns local news articles. Hence, "क़ादियान" is a transliteration of قادیان (qādyān). نعم البدل (talk) 12:14, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

@نعم البدل Hello mate. See this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Qadian. There is no such distinction , though some variant maybe more popular.

A kind of people using a particular word doesn't change anything. The place came to be known as both kadiyan and kadiya, and hence called both, they didn't need to borrow it. Your assumption that it was transliterated from Urdu is after all an assumption, without any merit. Thanks. Word0151 (talk) 15:43, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

@Word0151: Did you also see who was in the discussion by any chance? Also I do appreciate you not reverting my edit until we conclude the discussion. cc: inviting @Anupam for a third opinion, please - would you agree क़ादियान is a transliteration of قادیان, since the official Hindi name is क़ादियां? نعم البدل (talk) 21:16, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

@نعم البدل You say there: I'm guessing 'क़ादियाँ' was a transliteration of English 'Qadian. Also what's your opinion on हिंदुस्ताँ, is this a transliteration of Urdu; why and why not Word0151 (talk) 04:11, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

@Word0151: I was disputing the nuqta, not the name. And yes that specific term was a transliteration of English 'Qadian', because the correct term was "कादियां" or "क़ादियां" (as referenced by one newspaper which Anupam references). Yes I know the two diacritics are used interchangeably, but the point was that whoever created the Hindi page, simply transliterated it from the English word.

That is not to say that "कादियां" isn't the official Hindi name.

• हिंदुस्ताँ – I'm not sure if you mean the actual word or just the poetic -आँ ending in Urdu. If it's the actual word, then no - it's both a Hindi, and Urdu name. They can both attested way back unlike Hindi कादियान. نعم البدل (talk) 15:20, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

@نعم البدل कादियान from 1962 book, can कादियां be attested more earlier??

Also can you show how हिंदुस्ताँ can be attested way back? Word0151 (talk) 05:08, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

@Word0151: – Yeah, but I don't understand what attestation has to do here? Yeah कादियां can be attested in 1959 on preliminary searches, but that's not the point. The point was that Qadian was historically an Urdu-speaking area, prior to the partitions, and it has always been called قادِیان (qādiyān). How or why it has a different form in Punjabi or Hindi, I can't say for sure, but the proper Urdu name was always قادِیان (qādiyān), and قادِیاں (qādiyā̃) is/was a poetic form (in Urdu). It makes sense to say that कादियान (kādiyān) was a borrowing from Urdu, since the official and renowned Hindi and Punjabi name took shape as कादियां (kādiyā̃).

As for हिंदुस्ताँ (hindustā̃) – that's just ہِنْدُوسْتان (hindūstān), but the ending is replaced with the Urdu poetic form آں (ā̃), which only mutates Perso-Arab vocab. نعم البدل (talk) 16:02, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

@نعم البدل both qadiyan and qadiya evolved together, for some reasons qadiya is more popular in Hindi. You said: (They can both attested way back unlike Hindi कादियान); from your reply this seems incorrect. Both the variations can be cited around equal times. Also, why don't you think qadiya was borrowed from Punjabi. Word0151 (talk) 02:31, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

@Word0151: – The Urdu term قادیان (qādyān) can be attested in the mid-19th century, perhaps even earlier. If you can show me that कादियान (kādiyān) was attested around about the same time as the Urdu variant, then I will accept that it's not a transliteration. نعم البدل (talk) 02:33, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

@نعم البدل No i can not show it. Neither can i हिंदुस्ताँ, this was the only reason for asking attestation: that by you reasoning हिंदुस्ताँ too must be borrowed from Urdu. And you didn't reply to this- why don't you think qadiya was borrowed from Punjabi. Word0151 (talk) 02:40, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

@Word0151: Because I don't claim that हिंदुस्ताँ (hindustā̃) is merely an Urdu word, it is not. It is possible that Urdu influenced it, but it's not too much of a deal since it's commonly used in both Hindi and Urdu. कादियान (kādiyān) is not. You are more likely to use that term if you're an adherent of the Ahmadiyya faith, or are talking about Ahmadiyya. The vast majority of the people of Qadian who don't speak Urdu, likely don't use that term. They most likely use कादियां (kādiyā̃) / ਕਾਦੀਆਂ (kādīā̃). نعم البدل (talk) 02:48, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

The closest example I can think of is دِہْلی (dihlī) / دِلّی (dillī). The vast majority of Delhiites, who speak Hindi and Punjabi, refer to their city as dillī, yet the official English name is "Delhi" and the official Urdu name is دِہْلی (dihlī). There's no quarrel, languages evolve differently. Yes, Urdu speakers may also use دِلّی (dillī) which is influenced by Hindi/Punjabi, but officially it's دِہْلی (dihlī). نعم البدل (talk) 02:52, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

@Word0151: – If you still disagree with me, then fair enough you can remove it, I won't dispute it any further – it's not really a hill worth dying for anyways, lol (not being passive aggressive btw). نعم البدل (talk) 02:57, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

@نعم البدل @Svartava @AryamanA If a word is common among one community and rare in other, it doesn't translate to the word being borrowed from where it is common. You never gave any valid evidence. You say the word is official in Urdu and thus must be borrowed from it.

Neither you gave a good reason to my हिंदुस्ताँ question. From your statements of illusion: "हिंदुस्ताँ is common in both, and thus it is not borrowed from Urdu." हिंदुस्ताँ can't be cited way back as you say, just like Qadiya. It was a question on you flaw in reasoning.

No, i will not remove it. In Delhi case, i again tend to think its not a borrow from Hindi Word0151 (talk) 03:14, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

@Word0151: – Neither Hindi, nor Punjabi or Urdu use हिंदुस्ताँ (hindustā̃) as the main term to refer to India. It's हिंदुस्तान (hindustān). It is merely a poetic form. A case (which I forgot what it's called) which mutates specifically Perso-Arab vocab which end in –ān. It's not the same as قادِیان (qādiyān) vs قادِیاں (qādiyā̃), where one is more used in one language and one in another.

• In Delhi case, i again tend to think its not a borrow from Hindi – Yes but at the very at least influenced by Hindi. A native Urdu speaker who has never been to Delhi, or India perhaps (and that doesn't merely leave Pakistan) would almost certainly use the term دِہْلی (dihlī). The term دِلّی (dillī) is considered informal in Urdu. نعم البدل (talk) 09:32, 2 November 2023 (UTC)