Talk:قهوة

"قهوة" and "wine"

Evidence that this term also means or once meant "wine":

• Collins Word Exchange: History: C16: from Italian caffè, from Turkish kahve, from Arabic qahwah coffee, wine [1]
• Online Etymology Dictionary: 1598, from It. caffe, from Turk. kahveh, from Arabic qahwah "coffee," said originally to have meant "wine," but perhaps rather from Kaffa region of Ethiopia, a home of the plant (Coffee in Kaffa is called buno). [2]
• Wikipedia (previous version of the "Coffee" article): the name later evolved from Arabic word قهوة qahwa, over Ottoman Turkish kahve, which originally meant wine or other intoxicating liquors [3]
• The QARR Coffee: Qahwah (قهوة in Arabic), though an Arabic word for wine, is the original name of the coffee beverage made from its infusion [4]
• blurtit: since the word coffee is derived from the Arabic word, قهوة Qah'wa, which originally meant wine or liquior [5]
• Reason Magazine: A member of the Sufi order of Shadhili mystics is credited with first brewing coffee, or qahwa (short for qahwa al-bon, "wine of the bean" in Arabic), and it quickly spread through the group [6]
• gardfoods.com: One of the characteristics of the coffee bean is it can be fermented. Fermentation is the process of making alcohol form high sugar content plants. The word "qahwa" in Arabic means wine. Qahwa is the origin of the word coffee. In Europe, coffee was called "the wine of Arabia." Fermenting the coffee berry is still done today in Ethiopia and some Arabian countries. It is not commonly known that the coffee berry can be fermented. [7]
• JSTOR: The Oxford English Dictionary further notes that Arabic qahwah is said by certain Arabic lexicographers to have originally meant 'wine' or 'some kind of ... [8]
• Saudi Aramco World: Even the origin of the word itself is debated—in classical Arabic, qahwa originally referred to a kind of dark red wine [9]
• American Heritage Dictionary: Also khw. Central Semitic, to be(come) weak, dim, dull, dark. café, cafeteria, caffeine, coffee, ultimately from Arabic qahwa, coffee, wine (originally perhaps “dark stuff”), akin to Arabic kahiya, to be(come) weak, Aramaic kh, qh, Hebrew khâ, qhâ, to be(come) dim, faint, dull. [10]

It's very easy to find many many references with Google. Even if the story is false it is commonly enough believed, even by dictionaries, that it needs to be mentioned in the Etymology section and makes the real Arabic words for "wine" and "alcohol" relevant for the See also section. — Hippietrail 01:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I only find mentions in English sources, all based, like Online Etymology.com, on hypothesis and conjecture, but I don’t see any evidence in Arabic sources that it ever meant wine. It’s not even formed like a native word and, unlike most roots, it has no other senses than about coffee. Many Arabs will consider a wikilink from قهوة to نبيذ to be an insult. It would be better to link to كحل and نبيذ directly from the coffee page. —Stephen 02:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the same feelings that would consider the linking of two pages insulting to the point that you're recommending bowlderization contribute to the lack of references in Arabic sources. We have many other insulting words, definitions, etc. Do you find even the AHD's and OED's etymologists to be of a low standard? Might the Saudi Aramco World reference be taken as an Arabic source to some degree? In my search I've found references that state that in certain eras coffee drinkers were persecuted by certain mulsim sects just as wine drinkers. This should also be enough to warrant a See also link and outweigh any insulting feelings. — Hippietrail 02:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

This article in Foodie's Corner covers the history of coffee and of the word and includes multiple theories: [11] — Hippietrail 13:01, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Arabic nouns with diptote broken plural in -in

HI, shouldn't the plural be قهاوٍ 'Arabic nouns with diptote broken plural in -in', instead of قَهَاوِي? thanks in advance --Backinstadiums (talk) 14:10, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Descendants

@Vahagn Petrosyan: Does the hierarchy look correct to you? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 10:35, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

I am in doubt if Ottoman Turkish borrowed the word via Persian. It is first attested in the 16th century in Turkish. @ZxxZxxZ, do you have any specific reason to posit Persian mediation? --Vahag (talk) 11:28, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. By the way, I noticed that Z and you sometimes or often mark Tajik terms as descendents of Persian. I think it's more like a sister language, so Tajik has cognates, not derivations from Persian. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 11:32, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

If by "Persian" you mean "Contemporary Standard Persian", then yes. But we treat all varieties of New Persian (post 8th century) under "Persian". Tajik is a descendant of one of those varieties. --Vahag (talk) 11:49, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes, it is only the transliteration system that is based on the contemporary Iranian Persian. --Z 13:01, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Arabic loanwords in Ottoman Turkish are normally borrowed via Persian. But yes, this one is apparently borrowed directly. --Z 13:01, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

In that case I am moving everything directly under Arabic, unless we have evidence for mediation. --Vahag (talk) 15:49, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

I just recalled the word for coffeehouse in Ottoman Turkish (kahvehane) is borrowed from the Persian قهوه‌خانه. In Arabic, the word is مقهى maqhaa. --Z 13:53, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

That does not prove that Ottoman Turkish kahve was borrowed from Persian. The first part of kahve-hane can be a doublet. --Vahag (talk) 15:57, 10 December 2017 (UTC)