Talk:شنبلیله
Arabic
[edit]What is the source for the Arabic word šimlidej? I can't find this word or any similar word in sources. --Z 17:58, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
- Ačaṙyan s.v. շամղիտակ quoting the philologist Norayr Biwzandacʻi in the journal Handēs Amsōreay, 1924, page 71, says the Arabic transliteration of the Iranian word is շիմլիտէճ (šimlitēč) [šimlideǰ], which reflects Middle Persian *šamlīdag. I will try to order this volume in the library and see what were Norayr's sources. --Vahag (talk) 22:02, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks, it may be a mistake by someone, MP *šamlīdag normally yields *ša/imlīdaj in Arabic. --Z 07:20, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
- @ZxxZxxZ, Palaestrator verborum, your scepticism was misplaced. The Arabic word does exist. I did not go the libarary, but waited 2,5 years for them to scan and upload the above work by Norayr. See here, column 71. Turns out Norayr's source is Meninski's dictionary, here, column 692, s.v. hermodactylus, which has Arabic šimlīdej. Can you add the script now please? --Vahag (talk) 11:47, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Vahagn Petrosyan I have done that, but some scepticism is not misplaced. It could be a ghost-word because of some error. Considering that Mesgnien does not seem to have cared a lot about Arabic besides Turkish and Persian it could be a transcription from some Persian or Ottoman source. It would be good to see it in some Arabic botanical or medical book instead of this crooked way, you must agree that this is very unreliable; and morphologically this form of a word is even for a blatant borrowing hardly imaginable as being spoken in Arabic. Palaestrator verborum sis loquier 🗣 12:37, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Palaestrator verborum: One possible source is the Arabic translation of Agathangelos (several exist, discovered in the 20th century), the only place where շամղիտակ (šamłitak) is attested. --Vahag (talk) 13:43, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Vahagn Petrosyan I have done that, but some scepticism is not misplaced. It could be a ghost-word because of some error. Considering that Mesgnien does not seem to have cared a lot about Arabic besides Turkish and Persian it could be a transcription from some Persian or Ottoman source. It would be good to see it in some Arabic botanical or medical book instead of this crooked way, you must agree that this is very unreliable; and morphologically this form of a word is even for a blatant borrowing hardly imaginable as being spoken in Arabic. Palaestrator verborum sis loquier 🗣 12:37, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
- @ZxxZxxZ, Palaestrator verborum, your scepticism was misplaced. The Arabic word does exist. I did not go the libarary, but waited 2,5 years for them to scan and upload the above work by Norayr. See here, column 71. Turns out Norayr's source is Meninski's dictionary, here, column 692, s.v. hermodactylus, which has Arabic šimlīdej. Can you add the script now please? --Vahag (talk) 11:47, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks, it may be a mistake by someone, MP *šamlīdag normally yields *ša/imlīdaj in Arabic. --Z 07:20, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
Russian
[edit]@Vahagn Petrosyan: We must lack some forms in neighbouring languages, for Russian шамбала́ (šambalá) cannot derive from either of the mentioned ones. It is a word seemingly borrowed, like many others, in the course of the agricultural restructurings in the first two decades of the Soviet Union. Oddly, early Russian sources mention this шамбала́ (šambalá) being cultivated particularly in the Nakhichevan ASSR, one is quoted in the entry, and another, according to Google in a 1932 volume of Труды по прикладной ботанике, генетике и селекции, says it is called so there. And one alleges a variety Нахичева́нская шамбала́ (Naxičevánskaja šambalá), Nakhichevanskaya shambala. Has the Armenian word survived in the dialects of that other Armenia? Fay Freak (talk) 01:02, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
- In another quote, the Armenian bloke using it was born very far in Western Armenia, in the village Taşlıçiftlik, rayon Tokat, province Tokat, and later worked in Yerevan, his obituary is in Биологический журнал Армении 26 pages 103–105; they could have introduced this word. @Pompyxmori — Fay Freak (talk) 01:43, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Fay Freak: there is Armenian շամբալա (šambala) attested since the 19th century and at first referring to a "new" grass in Nakhichevan. It appears to be a literary word, whereas Azeri şəmbəllə is a living dialectal word from Nakhichevan. It must be the source of the Russian and the Armenian. --Vahag (talk) 15:15, 16 October 2020 (UTC)