Talk:تفنگ

Relation between تفنگ, تفک, and تُف or possibly توپ?

Hello. Nothing in this page (or corresponding pages of other languages) is said of the possible relation between تُف and تفنگ / تفک, even though the latter terms were first used to represent blowpipes which small (presumably round) projectiles were spit out of. It is claimed that the 'tuf' in تفنگ / تفک is simply onomatopoeia, but this seems like too much of a coincidence, considering تُف (or similar terms) are present in many Iranian languages with the same 'spit' meaning (see the Persian entry in تف), and onomatopoeia has not been claimed for their origins. The same word is also present in Arabic and it is claimed to be " Imitative of spitting", but if so; wouldn't that suggest a similar onomatopoeic origin for the Persian تف? Either way, this seems quite unlikely to me, as an imitation of spitting would naturally start with a plosive phoneme made with the lips and not with the tongue, like 'p'. In Dehkhoda's entry for تفنگ, it is stated that the older form of تفنگ is تفک. If this is the case, its possible that تفک is simply تُف + the Persian diminutive suffix ک.

I think it is also likely that there exists a relation between the origins of تفنگ / تفک and توپ, as the Pashto form of تفک was said to be توپک (topák), and in Dehkhoda's entry for تفک, it is also stated that تفک is a changed form of تپک which is the diminutive of توپ. Not to mention, Turks played an important role in early modern Iranian military development and hence, Turkic influence in Persian modern military terms is greater than in any other category. Anyhow, I state these propositions not with much certainty, simply some food for thought. MarkParker1221 (talk) 03:21, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

@MarkParker1221: And Russian тьфу (tʹfu), Polish tfu and φτου (ftou), all Iranian borrowings? Nah. Just concerted phonokinesics. Later we will find out that even Chinese 㖣 (tòu) and 咅 and Latin pītuīta are onomatopoeic, especially /t/ and something like /u/ is targetted in such expressions, in its pure form also in Thai ถุย (tǔi) and lately the second half of the two-word expression English hawk tuah against earlier ptui. You are rightfully distrustful about the supposed Indo-European reconstruction behind Persian تف (tof, “spittle”). Even if there was some related PIE terminology, which there certainly was if we extrapolate the tendencies of the later languages, an inherited form must have been tainted by renewed echoism. I only trust @Victar to tell us about the irregularities, else driveby creators of PIE pages have been far too credulous in “reconstructing” body sounds.

My hunch about the Pashto form توپک (/⁠topák⁠/) is that it must have passed through a Turkic language which does not allow /p/ much, or the Pashto speakers are actually Iranianized Turks here leaving the phonemic inventory of their previous language, as this happens to be the ethnic composition of Afghanistan. Even the current phonological and phonetic structure of Iranian Persian is far from native Iranian, but we won’t get through the details without mastering lots of difficult languages modern and ancient. I instead point out the blended example of Persian تفنگچه (tufangča) having entered in Pashto as both تفنګچه (tofangčá) and توپنګچه (topangčá). Fay Freak (talk) 06:22, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

@Fay Freak Wow, I didn't quite know the frequency of onomatopoeic words that mean 'spit'; its quite intriguing how many of them there are that start with either 't' or 'p'. Funnily enough, even in English we have ptooey and ptui. Considering this, a similar onomatopoeic origin for Latin pituita seems plausible. After all, people don't only spit saliva lol. Also, I couldn't find any sign of a Middle Persian ancestor term for Persian تف in Middle Persian dictionaries or texts, which I think further corroborates the theory of تف being yet another onomatopoeic word meaning 'spit'. The only Middle Persian term for 'spit' that I found was xayūg, which also made it to New Persian as خیو.

In regards to the Pashtun people, their true origins are well concealed in a mix of history and mythology. I have heard that some old Pashtun legends claim a link between the Pashtuns' ancestors and the ancient Israelites, but I am not sure how accepted this idea is even in a non academic context amongst the Pashtuns themselves. Whatever their origins are, I think the diversity in Pashto's various dialects is far too great for the entirety of those who call themselves Pashtun / Paxtun today, to have originated from a single unified people. Considering Afghanistans ethnic composition though, its not far fetched to believe at least SOME Pashtuns descended from a Turkic tribe and only became Iranianized after the Arab conquests. Even if that were the case, I don't know enough about Turkic languages to distinguish the phonetic effects of one Turkic languages from another on Pashto. The example you brought up is interesting. If we presume that the compound was created in Persian and then was borrowed by Pashto, and that the latter form, i.e. توپنګچه, is more common than the former, it would suggest a tendency of Pashto to prefer /p/ over /f/ as you mentioned. MarkParker1221 (talk) 04:26, 4 August 2024 (UTC)