Talk:بالفعل
Add topicLatest comment: 4 years ago by Metaknowledge in topic RFV discussion: February–March 2020
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Rfv-sense — This unsigned comment was added by Fenakhay (talk • contribs).
- Not sure about the sense but the the other sense and the entry should be kept despite looking like an SoP, IMO. @Fay Freak. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:49, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
- @Atitarev: This is RFV but not RFD, however: I think the gloss “already” is misguided. This understanding derives from understanding the word, derived from فَعَلَ (faʕala, “to make, to effect”) as “effective”, thus “truly” or “already true”. Probably more close to the second etymology of already which is allegedly Yiddish. Fay Freak (talk) 23:55, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
- I know about RFV not RFD. The other sense and the entry itself are not disputed YET, just expressing my opinion.
- What is your suggested (better) translation and sense fix? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:04, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
- @Atitarev: Hm, if I search English to Arabic “already” in the context dictionary, this بِالْفِعْل (bi-l-fiʕl) is exactly what shows up, and reversely if I search بِالْفِعْل (bi-l-fiʕl) most translations are “already”. But if one looks closely at the examples, they are mostly about measures applied, especially legal ones, and many could be translated from Arabic as “truly”, “already implemented”, “in effect”; many are combined with الْآن (al-ʔān). So after all it is true what I implied, that the use as “already” is peripheral, or “not what the word actually means”. The other translations into Arabic are interesting: سَلَفًا (salafan) (which rather means: before already, preceding, so to say “faster”), حَالِيًّا (ḥāliyyan) (which means “currently”) لَقَد (laqad) (this translation is the best Arabic but is not used in the same positions as in English but rather at the beginning of a sentence), أَصْلًا (ʔaṣlan) (which means “originally”, or perhaps also “actually”), سَبَقَ (sabaqa) + verbal noun (“XYZ preceded” – a good paraphrasis), سَابِقاً (sābiqan) (“in a preceding fashion”). Nabil Osman in his German-Arabic dictionary gives for schon (which corresponds to English already) مُنْذُ وَقْتٍ (munḏu waqtin) which apparently rather means “a long time, for a while now”. Similar is also مُنْذُ الْآن (munḏu l-ʔān, “since now”). My answer to this is that we give up this thinking of separate senses and describe the semantical field a word can apply too, which I will do now, glossing as “truly, actually, already effective”. @Fenakhay, Heydari Fay Freak (talk) 00:35, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
- Here is how a word that means “actually”, “really”, “truly” etc. always can mean “already”: Because if something has been real, it has always been already; for if it has been active in reality, if something has effected actually, the causality chain will never be reversed. It doesn’t mean however that the words mean that, if we use them so. (That is, “mean” in another meaning of this word.) Fay Freak (talk) 00:46, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
- @Fay Freak: I think it's currently looking good, thank you. Calling @Fenakhay. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:02, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
- Here is how a word that means “actually”, “really”, “truly” etc. always can mean “already”: Because if something has been real, it has always been already; for if it has been active in reality, if something has effected actually, the causality chain will never be reversed. It doesn’t mean however that the words mean that, if we use them so. (That is, “mean” in another meaning of this word.) Fay Freak (talk) 00:46, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
- @Atitarev: Hm, if I search English to Arabic “already” in the context dictionary, this بِالْفِعْل (bi-l-fiʕl) is exactly what shows up, and reversely if I search بِالْفِعْل (bi-l-fiʕl) most translations are “already”. But if one looks closely at the examples, they are mostly about measures applied, especially legal ones, and many could be translated from Arabic as “truly”, “already implemented”, “in effect”; many are combined with الْآن (al-ʔān). So after all it is true what I implied, that the use as “already” is peripheral, or “not what the word actually means”. The other translations into Arabic are interesting: سَلَفًا (salafan) (which rather means: before already, preceding, so to say “faster”), حَالِيًّا (ḥāliyyan) (which means “currently”) لَقَد (laqad) (this translation is the best Arabic but is not used in the same positions as in English but rather at the beginning of a sentence), أَصْلًا (ʔaṣlan) (which means “originally”, or perhaps also “actually”), سَبَقَ (sabaqa) + verbal noun (“XYZ preceded” – a good paraphrasis), سَابِقاً (sābiqan) (“in a preceding fashion”). Nabil Osman in his German-Arabic dictionary gives for schon (which corresponds to English already) مُنْذُ وَقْتٍ (munḏu waqtin) which apparently rather means “a long time, for a while now”. Similar is also مُنْذُ الْآن (munḏu l-ʔān, “since now”). My answer to this is that we give up this thinking of separate senses and describe the semantical field a word can apply too, which I will do now, glossing as “truly, actually, already effective”. @Fenakhay, Heydari Fay Freak (talk) 00:35, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
- @Atitarev: This is RFV but not RFD, however: I think the gloss “already” is misguided. This understanding derives from understanding the word, derived from فَعَلَ (faʕala, “to make, to effect”) as “effective”, thus “truly” or “already true”. Probably more close to the second etymology of already which is allegedly Yiddish. Fay Freak (talk) 23:55, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
- RFV resolved. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:50, 28 March 2020 (UTC)