Talk:обуревать
Add topicLatest comment: 3 years ago by Fay Freak
@Gnosandes, Tetromino: Would you know where this verb come from? Is it related to бу́ря (búrja)? PUC – 12:14, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
- +@Fay Freak PUC – 12:14, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
- @PUC: I don't know. Gnosandes (talk) 14:52, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
- @PUC: There are three homonyms for Ukrainian бу́рити (búryty), all treated by Melnychuk, O. S., editor (1982–2012), “обуревать”, in Етимологічний словник української мови [Etymological Dictionary of the Ukrainian Language] (in Ukrainian), Kyiv: Naukova Dumka, pages 300–301, the first Proto-Slavic *buriti (“to churn”), the second Proto-Slavic *boriti (“to demolish”), the third a Germanism “to bore”. Our current Russian entries have only the Germanism бури́ть (burítʹ), or current Polish treatment appears to have confused the first and second, burzyć (@Shumkichi, @Hergilei; but “to demolish” is for Old Polish given as borzyć).
- You're right, burzyć cannot come from *boriti as it would give a different phonetic outcome especially in the present and past conjugations. It must come from *buriti (even the orthography suggests so), and WSJP seems to agree with that: https://www.wsjp.pl/do_druku.php?id_hasla=17977&id_znaczenia=0. Btw., can someone create the entry for *buriti so that we can update *boriti? Shumkichi (talk) 16:57, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
- In Russian, there is also обу́ревать (obúrevatʹ, “to bore [around something for a period of time]”). And… I have doubts about borrowing from the Ukrainian. As far as I know, some dialects in Ukraine west of the south-west have: I. burɪ́tɪ (1sg. bur’ú, 3sg. burɪ́t) (“to bore”) and II. búrɪtɪ s’a (1 sg. búr’u s’a, 3 sg. búrɪt s’a) (“обижаться”) ~ ọbúrɪtɪ s’a (“обидеться”). Perhaps we shouldn't forget about буре́ть (burétʹ). Gnosandes (talk) 17:48, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
- That is written обу́ривать (obúrivatʹ). It may be of course that Ukrainian stress varies. Borrowing from Ukrainian here is also my guess, as I noticed the Ukrainian words to be of much broader use and afterwards I found Anikin but his meanings are still remoter than the Ukrainian ones. The “bore” meanings are borrowed anyway from the West. But none of this “bore” word is pertinent here, this is just Proto-Germanic *burōną of distinct meaning. буре́ть (burétʹ) however: Anikin has forgot to list it. ru.Wiktionary has it, but the first just a colour term “to become бу́рый (búryj)” which the claim of Turkic origin, the second “to gloat”, which they claim to be from бу́рый (búryj) I don’t know in which meaning (a usually unlisted homonym of this colour term? More likely closely related to one of the бури́ть (burítʹ) words) Fay Freak (talk) 19:01, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
- In Russian, there is also обу́ревать (obúrevatʹ, “to bore [around something for a period of time]”). And… I have doubts about borrowing from the Ukrainian. As far as I know, some dialects in Ukraine west of the south-west have: I. burɪ́tɪ (1sg. bur’ú, 3sg. burɪ́t) (“to bore”) and II. búrɪtɪ s’a (1 sg. búr’u s’a, 3 sg. búrɪt s’a) (“обижаться”) ~ ọbúrɪtɪ s’a (“обидеться”). Perhaps we shouldn't forget about буре́ть (burétʹ). Gnosandes (talk) 17:48, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
- You're right, burzyć cannot come from *boriti as it would give a different phonetic outcome especially in the present and past conjugations. It must come from *buriti (even the orthography suggests so), and WSJP seems to agree with that: https://www.wsjp.pl/do_druku.php?id_hasla=17977&id_znaczenia=0. Btw., can someone create the entry for *buriti so that we can update *boriti? Shumkichi (talk) 16:57, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
- Anikin, A. E. (2007) “бурить”, in Русский этимологический словарь [Russian Etymological Dictionary] (in Russian), issue 1 (A – аяюшка), Moscow: Manuscript Monuments Ancient Rus, →ISBN, page 163 (his etymological dictionary you find too online) lists even six headwords for Russian, all with end stress unlike the Ukrainian but the sixth бу́рить (búritʹ, “to pour much”) wherefor he knows an Ukrainian бу́рити (búryty) however, reconstructing with other cognates another Proto-Slavic *buriti. The first in Anikin is the Germanism and the fourth is the first in Melʹnyčuk and the second the second in Melʹnyčuk (but Anikin seems to mix meanings of the “churn” word into the “demolish” one and kind of restrict his fourth headword to tempest meanings belonging to *buřa), the third he equals with his sixth and the fifth is an obscure “to play cards or a particular card game”. Fay Freak (talk) 16:44, 6 June 2021 (UTC)