Talk:дельфин

(Notifying Atitarev, Cinemantique, Useigor, Wikitiki89, Stephen G. Brown, Guldrelokk, Fay Freak, Tetromino, Per utramque cavernam): The accent on ре́звятся was present long before my auto-accenter filled in the remaining accents. Is this accent correct? It does seem to fit the meter, but I can't find any evidence of this stress pattern being correct. Benwing2 (talk) 12:07, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Here is a clearer example. Guldrelokk (talk) 14:18, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

@Benwing2, Guldrelokk: Clearly such a stress pattern was used for rhyming. I think such cases should be marked to avoid confusion for foreign learners. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:45, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

@Atitarev When you say "marked", what do you suggest? Benwing2 (talk) 04:55, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Anything will do, e.g. usage notes, as in e.g. про се́рого ре́чь, а се́рый навстре́чь (pro sérovo réčʹ, a séryj navstréčʹ) - the word "навстре́чь" is non-existent. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:03, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Similarly, навстре́чь is a perfectly good dialectal word there is no way wouldn’t exist, which you would totally expect in a proverb from Dahl.

@Atitarev: I wonder, did you notice the dates? It’s simply the old accent, cf. Словарь Академии Российской V 260.

Despite what Russian schools teach, in classic poetry the phenomenon of ‘changing accents for rhyme’ is so close to non-existence you are not likely to ever encounter one. Guldrelokk (talk) 05:39, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

@Guldrelokk Why did you delete my note? I think it's factually correct; no dictionary I could find lists forms like ре́звятся, hence to the extent they exist they are rare, and probably appear only in poetry. The point of such a notice is to indicate that the accent is not simply a mistake. Benwing2 (talk) 06:13, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

@Benwing2: See my reference above. It’s not poetic, just obsolete. It was simply how Deržavin spoke. Guldrelokk (talk) 06:22, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

@Guldrelokk Very well, then the note should indicate that it's obsolete, or at least the page for резви́ться (rezvítʹsja) should list the obsolete forms. Benwing2 (talk) 06:29, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

@Benwing2: That would be correct, but do we actually need to add ancient quotations with accents marked only to correct them with footnotes? The quote could be replaced. Guldrelokk (talk) 06:31, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

@Guldrelokk Go ahead and replace it if you have a good substitute. Benwing2 (talk) 06:32, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

@Guldrelokk, Benwing2: OK. The notes are still merited. "навстре́чь" is only used in the proverb, although it can be explained dialectally, I don't see that explanation in the reference.

I also think that poets have been using "licentiapoetica" for a long time and you can find adjustments to word and sentence stress and made up words in the classical literature as well. It doesn't take long to find such examples.

I think we can keep quotations with older inflections patterns without having to change the inflection tables, just need to make a brief note. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 08:44, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

@Atitarev: Here are many older examples of навстрѣчь over than that proverb. It is an apocopic form normal for adverbs.

I didn’t say ‘completely non-existent’, but so far (admittedly not being a fan of literature) all unusual accents I encountered myself and would have thought are ‘artificial’ I now know to be the norm once thanks to Zaliznyak and old dictionaries. Guldrelokk (talk) 09:01, 15 February 2019 (UTC)