Reconstruction talk:Proto-West Germanic/ramm
Latest comment: 5 months ago by Leasnam in topic *ram(m)ēn, *ram(m)ōn
ramdäsig
[edit]I've removed the descendant ramdäsig (aka rammdäsig; compare German Low German rammdösig, German rammdösig) because it's obvious that this is from rammen (“to ram”) + däsig, dösig (“drowsy, dizzy”). This is why you cannot rely strictly on SOURCES alone. Sources "make up stuff" too. Leasnam (talk) 18:03, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
*ram(m)ēn, *ram(m)ōn
[edit]@Leasnam where are you moving these to? -- Sokkjō 19:09, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- The Old Frisian doesn't belong, and I have edited the Old English etymology at remian. The only remaining descendant would be the Low German raomen, but I cannot find this anywhere. Also, I cannot find a Middle Low German rāmen that would appropriately fit in this descent. Can you please shed some light on these 2 terms ? Leasnam (talk) 19:39, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that there appears to be some merged verbs here, but I think they should be commented out until they can be resolved to their proper entries, not deleted. If you have a look at the page, I added a source for the LG verb, which also illustrates the convergence.
- What is your objection to the semantic shift of “to strengthen” > “to repair”, proposed by Köbler? -- Sokkjō 20:27, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- I'm just not convinced it had the meaning of "strengthen" in the way we think of it today. I think *ramm meant "strong" in the sense of "overbearing, acrid, rank" so "strong" in a negative sense. Therefore *rammōn would mean something along the lines of "to cause (something) to be overbearing, make pungent or stinky", so the Old English remian (“to mend, restore”) seems way off from this. Leasnam (talk) 22:14, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- Regarding raomen, I wasn't able to load the page in my browser, but I trust you and based on the update to the gloss it appears to be the same as Middle Low German râmen(1) in Wikiling ("to aim, aspire, move towards a goal, meet a goal, achieve, carry out") which would tie it to Middle High German rāmen, ræmen (“to aim, strive, meet, achieve, deal with”), from Old High German rāmēn (“to aim, aspire, strive, try, attack”), from Proto-West Germanic *rāmēn (“to strive”), so it could not, based on the MHG and OHG cognates, be from *rammōn or *ramm; unless it were a verb that appears in Modern times with no connection to Middle Low German râmen :( Leasnam (talk) 22:39, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- True, the original meaning in PG seems to have been along the lines of “overwhelming, overpowering”, which only came to specifically mean “overwhelming in smell, taste” come Old Norse, while the Low German is a merger a denominal verb, and that of PWG *rāmēn (“to strive for, aim for”). -- Sokkjō 01:04, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
- Regarding raomen, I wasn't able to load the page in my browser, but I trust you and based on the update to the gloss it appears to be the same as Middle Low German râmen(1) in Wikiling ("to aim, aspire, move towards a goal, meet a goal, achieve, carry out") which would tie it to Middle High German rāmen, ræmen (“to aim, strive, meet, achieve, deal with”), from Old High German rāmēn (“to aim, aspire, strive, try, attack”), from Proto-West Germanic *rāmēn (“to strive”), so it could not, based on the MHG and OHG cognates, be from *rammōn or *ramm; unless it were a verb that appears in Modern times with no connection to Middle Low German râmen :( Leasnam (talk) 22:39, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- I'm just not convinced it had the meaning of "strengthen" in the way we think of it today. I think *ramm meant "strong" in the sense of "overbearing, acrid, rank" so "strong" in a negative sense. Therefore *rammōn would mean something along the lines of "to cause (something) to be overbearing, make pungent or stinky", so the Old English remian (“to mend, restore”) seems way off from this. Leasnam (talk) 22:14, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- I just came across Old Norse remma (“to make strong, tie up, secure”) which makes Old English remian possible :) I stand corrected. It's development or journey into Old English is still a mystery, I cannot puzzle out how it could have acquired this form, unless the attested form (remiġende) is a rare variant of a more normal unattested form like *remman, which is possible. Leasnam (talk) 18:35, 6 January 2024 (UTC)