Reconstruction talk:Proto-Ryukyuan/kaze

Korean sources

@Chuterix, please stop inventing pronunciations for hangul strings. w:Hangul was initially created to be a phonetic alphabet, and in the early 1500s, this would still have been phonetic. The hangul string 칸즤 is literally spelled as k a n   j ŭ i, and there is no way that this would have been read by any literate Koreans of the time as kaze. As I mentioned in my earlier edit comment, the jamo ㅿ was still in use at that time to transcribe /z/, so if the authors had intended to indicate a /z/ sound, they would have used the ㅿ jamo.

Regarding the source title, using the more-common McCune-Reischauer romanization scheme, 《해동제국기》 (from Sino-Korean 海東諸國紀) would be Haedong Jegukgi, as indeed we have at Wikipedia: [[w:Haedong Jegukgi]]. Please update your mentions to use this spelling, and please link through to the Wikipedia article. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:19, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Can you please read Lin 2015? Also I told you phonetic transcriptions are not perfect. Look to see if other transcriptions of ze are there rather than saying "I" made these up.

I need to source this if I make a new entry with such. Chuterix (talk) 23:25, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

@Chuterix --

Lin 2015 is 289 pages long (direct link). That's a bit much to ask at the moment. Quite what section are you intending to reference?

At chance, I see on page 107 that Lin has a table correlating the Okinawan with the Korean. The Okinawan nape is transcribed in hangul as 나븨, and that is romanized as na.pɨi. Thus, even Lin romanizes the Korean ㅢ vowel combination as a diphthong.

After some digging (and fighting with the oddities of PDF restrictions), I found kaze listed on page 273. Lin gives the Okinawan as kaⁿtse, transcribed in hangul as 칸즤, which Lin romanizes as kʰan.tsɨi. Neither Lin's Okinawan nor their hangul romanization matches the kaze spelling. The use of /ts/ for ㅈ, instead of the modern /tʃ/ or /dʒ/, matches the expected sound values for Middle Korean, as listed at w:Middle_Korean#Script_and_phonology. Notably, that chart includes /z/ and the jamo ㅿ, again indicating that if /z/ were intended by the Haedong Jegukgi authors, they would have spelled it that way.

Given the challenges inherent in any case of speakers of Language A transcribing the sounds they perceive from Language B, we have no guarantee that either kʰan.tsɨi or kaⁿtse accurately reflect the Okinawan of that time. Consider, for example, the yawning phonetic gulf between McDonald's and Makudonarudo. It is entirely possible that the Okinawan speakers of that time perceived their word for "wind" as something closer to kaze. That said, based on the Haedong Jegukgi text's hangul spelling, we cannot romanize that as kaze. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 06:23, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

PS: Lin's "Appendix D: Korean wordlists" on pages 272 - 279 includes no words where either the Okinawan or the hangul romanization include a z, and only a small number where the Japanese cognate includes a z -- kaze, kozo, and fituzi. All are spelled in hangul using ㅈ, with romanizations (kind of semi-IPA) of either ts or tʃ, for both Okinawan and hangul. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 06:42, 21 November 2023 (UTC)