Reconstruction talk:Proto-Celtic/Katuwelnāmnos
Add topicLatest comment: 8 years ago by Anglom
@UtherPendrogn, CodeCat, Angr, JohnC5, I'm struggling to understand the etymology of the second element in *Katuwelnāmnos. Do its descendants really point to *welnāmnos, *wolnāmnos, and if so, would *wolnāmnos mean "regal, ruler-like", from *wolnāmon- (“ruler”) with it's agent suffix *-mon-. --Victar (talk) 01:12, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
- I'm unsatisfied by this. How would Caesar latinise it as "Catuvellaunus"? Half the sounds are different! It's like latinising Bob as Robertus. UtherPendrogn (talk) 09:00, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
- What are you unsatisfied by? You created this entry with this reconstruction. --Victar (talk) 10:10, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
- @Victar I literally just said why. Also, why did you delete the meaning of his name and the correct form of the Gaulish name as given by Delamarre? UtherPendrogn (talk) 18:19, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
- Because it came up with no results on Google and you failed to source it properly. Also, I think it's poor form to conjure a meaning from a reconstructed compound name. It may have no meaning conjoined at all, and instead just two joined yet separate elements. The best we can do is to try and define the individual elements and let people make their own assumptions from there. --Victar (talk) 18:54, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
- That's not your call to make. And how the hell is a google search irrefutable proof that a name doesn't mean a certain thing? UtherPendrogn (talk) 11:08, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
- Which is why you need to source your work. --Victar (talk) 12:04, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
- Rich coming from someone who rarely sources theirs. UtherPendrogn (talk) 00:06, 24 October 2016 (UTC)\
- We should all source more, but you asked why your Gaulish variant was deleted and I told you. --Victar (talk) 04:14, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
- You don't practice what you preach. UtherPendrogn (talk) 12:14, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- Nobody is perfect. I'm just telling you where you entry fell short. --Victar (talk) 12:23, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- Shear your own sheep. UtherPendrogn (talk) 14:10, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- If you want isolation, maybe you should go play No Man's Sky. I don't think there's any sheep shearing though. ;) --Victar (talk) 16:37, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- I would appreciate you sourcing the pages YOU post before others'. UtherPendrogn (talk) 19:10, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- Yep, please take note of *Katuwelnāmnos of how to better cite sources. Thanks. --Victar (talk) 20:14, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- Way to dodge answering my remark. UtherPendrogn (talk) 21:12, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- Best of luck! --Victar (talk) 21:43, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- Way to dodge answering my remark. UtherPendrogn (talk) 21:12, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- Yep, please take note of *Katuwelnāmnos of how to better cite sources. Thanks. --Victar (talk) 20:14, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- I would appreciate you sourcing the pages YOU post before others'. UtherPendrogn (talk) 19:10, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- If you want isolation, maybe you should go play No Man's Sky. I don't think there's any sheep shearing though. ;) --Victar (talk) 16:37, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- Shear your own sheep. UtherPendrogn (talk) 14:10, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- Nobody is perfect. I'm just telling you where you entry fell short. --Victar (talk) 12:23, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- You don't practice what you preach. UtherPendrogn (talk) 12:14, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- We should all source more, but you asked why your Gaulish variant was deleted and I told you. --Victar (talk) 04:14, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
- Rich coming from someone who rarely sources theirs. UtherPendrogn (talk) 00:06, 24 October 2016 (UTC)\
- Which is why you need to source your work. --Victar (talk) 12:04, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
- That's not your call to make. And how the hell is a google search irrefutable proof that a name doesn't mean a certain thing? UtherPendrogn (talk) 11:08, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
- Because it came up with no results on Google and you failed to source it properly. Also, I think it's poor form to conjure a meaning from a reconstructed compound name. It may have no meaning conjoined at all, and instead just two joined yet separate elements. The best we can do is to try and define the individual elements and let people make their own assumptions from there. --Victar (talk) 18:54, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
- @Victar I literally just said why. Also, why did you delete the meaning of his name and the correct form of the Gaulish name as given by Delamarre? UtherPendrogn (talk) 18:19, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
- What are you unsatisfied by? You created this entry with this reconstruction. --Victar (talk) 10:10, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
- Ah, sorry I missed the discussion at Wiktionary:Beer parlour#Proto-Brythonic and I see the reconstruction of the the second element in Cassivellaunus comes from Delamarre as *uelna-mon- (“leader, sovereign”). It makes sense, but I guess I'm still trying to understand the *-ln- to *-ll- and *-mon- > *-mnos > *-unos. --Victar (talk) 11:34, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
- Les noms gaulois chez César et Hirtius de bello gallico connects the second element to Breton gwell (“better”), which Matasovic cites and reconstructs the element as Proto-Indo-European *welHmh₁nos with a dissimilation of *-mn- to *-wn- in PCelt. Does anyone know an example of this dissimilation elsewhere in PCelt? I'm only aware of *-pn- to *-wn-. --Victar (talk) 12:09, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
- Ok, I see *-ln- to *-ll- is pretty standard for PCelt and PItc, ex. Proto-Celtic *folnos to Gaulish ollos, Old Irish oll. Still need to figure out the *-mn- to *-wn-, but *Katuwollāwnos definitely feels more palatable. --Victar (talk) 13:24, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
- @CodeCat, Angr, JohnC5, any thoughts on the formation of *welnāmnos, *wolnāmnos? --Victar (talk) 16:19, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
- Might make sense as denominal *ā-mn-os or the like. Also, how sure are we that the vowel is long? Because the Brythonic forms are consistent with just *-aunos as well, which might make sense as a middle participle remnant, *-m̥nos. Also, -mn- to -wn- is kind of consistent with the change -nm- to -nw- which occurred in both Gaulish and Brythonic. Anglom (talk) 22:07, 25 October 2016 (UTC)