Module talk:bg-translit

See also: Wiktionary talk:Bulgarian transliteration

Testing a sample Bulgarian text with word stresses

Short:

бъ́лгарски ези́к:

bǎ́lgarski ezík

Long:

Бъ̀лгарският ези́к е индоевропе́йски ези́к от гру́пата на южнославя́нските ези́ци. Той е официа́лният ези́к на Репу́блика Бълга́рия.

Bǎ̀lgarskijat ezík e indoevropéjski ezík ot grúpata na južnoslavjánskite ezíci. Toj e oficiálnijat ezík na Repúblika Bǎlgárija.

Note, stressed "ъ́" or "ъ̀" is transliterated as "ǎ̀".  Done. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:02, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

@Atitarev: Mh, apparently it's still transliterated as "ǎ́": четвъ́рти (četvǎ́rti). --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 13:14, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

That said, Wiktionary:Bulgarian transliteration says that for accented ъ, ъ̀/ǎ̀ is used, not ъ́/ǎ́ (this was the case already before my changes). So shouldn't we simply replace all instances of "ъ́" with "ъ̀"? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 13:27, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that’s my understanding. Apparently, there are conventions to use the grave sign in other situations but since the rules are not known/understood and not described, we can use the grave sign only with ъ. Bulgarian doesn’t need manual transliterations at all, just consistent stress marks. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 21:00, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

@Atitarev: Yes, I'm going through the maintenance categories Category:Terms with redundant transliterations and Category:Terms with manual transliterations different from the automated ones (for Ukrainian, Belarusian, Bulgarian, Macedonian, OCS). But honestly I'm a bit disheartened: the infrastructure for Bulgarian and Belarusian is in a sorry state or inexistent, and I fear there won't ever be anybody to improve that. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 11:56, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

@Per utramque cavernam:: Removing redundant transliterations will be still beneficial. Adding comprehensive inflections for languages such as Belarusian or Ukrainian would be a tremendous task, so just having the correct formatting and definitions is good enough. It will also be very error-prone if your own knowledge is low. BTW, I just checked some of the recent Slavic terms you edited - they seem apparent SoP's. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 12:09, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

@Atitarev: Oh no, I certainly won't try creating inflection tables myself.

About the SOP terms, which ones do you have in mind? Multiwords entries I've edited recently are the words in {{list:fundamental interactions/bg}}, the мова combinations (славенская мова, etc.), and the склон combinations (вінавальны склон, etc.). I wouldn't be particularly sad to see the мова and the склон combinations go, but I think these tend to be kept. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 12:32, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Even if the English terms are kept: слабо ядрено взаимодействие, силно ядрено взаимодействие, гравитационно взаимодействие. мова combinations, etc. are low values as well. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 12:38, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

@Atitarev: I definitely agree they're low value. Should I submit the physics entries (but first I must create Bulgarian взаимодействие (vzaimodejstvie)) plus the мова combinations to RFD? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 22:36, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

@Per utramque cavernam: Bulgarian взаимоде́йствие (vzaimodéjstvie) is created. I guess you can RFD those. I used to oppose deletion of terms of words for "language" in languages where it's part of more common names for languages but I won't object any more. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 11:14, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

@Atitarev: Thanks for creating the entry. I've RFD'ed the mova combinations (here, if you want to weigh in); I'll do the same for the others soon.

BTW, do you know of a good Bulgarian dictionary online, with consistent stress markings? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 23:53, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, it's a bit difficult. Sometimes I Google in quotes using suspected stressed words using Russian "болгарский" and find stressed Bulgarian terms. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 11:41, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Crap, I won't be as effective as in Belarusian then!

@Осиновител СВС: Hello. Is Bulgarian your mother tongue? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 15:02, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Per utramque cavernam - yes, it is my native language. How can I help you? I am Осиновител СВС — This unsigned comment was added by Осиновител СВС (talk • contribs).

@Осиновител СВС, Per utramque cavernam: @Осиновител СВС: Hello. Are you able to explain the conventions for using acute vs grave accents in Bulgarian words? So far, we have established that ъ̀ takes a grave accent. Also, do you have links to online Bulgarian dictionaries with stresses? Other languages will also work if you don't English-Bulgarian. Please use four tildes to sign your posts. @Per utramque cavernam: we can still make it efficient but make our own conventions for Bulgarian. We are the dictionary creators in this case but would be better, if we are able to use the conventions known out there. @Bogorm. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:41, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Unfortunately I am not cognizant of the correctness in applying acute or grave accents, but I have an edition of Правописен речник на българския език (Orthographic dictionary of the Bulgarian language, author: Prof. Ljubomir Andrejčin, 1984) and all accents are grave (not only ъ̀). There are no romanisations in the dictionary. The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 18:23, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Осиновител СВС - I don't know how to sign my posts, I like this post, that way - Bǎlgarskijat ezík e indoevropéjski ezík ot grúpata na južnoslavjánskite ezíci. Toj e oficiálnijat ezík na Repúblika Bǎlgárija. It is better to stress this like и́ндоевропе́йските - índoevropéjskite, and ю́жнославя́нските - júžnoslavjánskite. You can continue using for example áéíóú etc. I don't have any dictionaries or any ideas, but for the Cyrillic letters it is better to use other letters for Ъъ, like Ѣѣ - бѣлгари - bǎlgari. You don't have to stress the letter ǎ. We don't have rules for accents, but we use a grave only for Ѝѝ. We use Ѝѝ in this name Данаѝл Danaìl. I like it that way: А́а́ Ъ́ъ́ О́о́ У́у́ Е́е́ И́и́ Ю́ю́ Я́я́ or with Ѣѣ. For example, if you want to stress this name Данаѝл - Danaìl, you don't have to write it like Danaíl, because ì is already a stressed letter. We call it stressed i There is also a mistake in the standart wikipedia romanization of the Bulgarian, because for Ѝѝ, you use Ѝì, instead of Ìì, and for Ьь its written (ʹ ʹ), but actualy it is Jj, when I tried some texts, can you edit this?: (Cyrillic-script letters) А а (A a), Б б (B b), В в (V v), Г г (G g), Д д (D d), Е е (E e), Ж ж (Ž ž), З з (Z z), И и (I i) (Ѝ ѝ (Ѝ ì)), Й й (J j), К к (K k), Л л (L l), М м (M m), Н н (N n), О о (O o), П п (P p), Р р (R r), С с (S s), Т т (T t), У у (U u), Ф ф (F f), Х х (H h), Ц ц (C c), Ч ч (Č č), Ш ш (Š š), Щ щ (Št št), Ъ ъ (Ǎ ǎ), Ь ь (ʹ ʹ), Ю ю (Ju ju), Я я (Ja ja)

Acute vs grave

Bulgarian is treated as a stress accent language and at least the standard textbooks use the grave sign to denote the stress (it's not wrong using the acute, though). Differences between acute and grave, however, do exist (at least in some dialects). That's why some specialized textbooks make distinction between them, especially when they have to differentiate homonyms. It has to be pointed that Bulgarian is formed from the mixing of different Slavic dialects (Sclavinian coming from north-west and Antaean from north-east), which do not always agree on the prosody. For this reason, there are no firmly established rules regarding the accent. For example, Western dialects treat it as fixed, while the Eastern treat it as mobile; Western dialects are stress-timed, the Eastern are syllable-timed (with reduction of unstressed vowels); etc. In school, we are encouraged to learn the stress position according to Eastern Bulgarian but we are supposed to use the Western timing /i.e. roughly equal length of all syllables/. And, in general, we get used to recognize all possible patterns rather than focusing on only one of them. (This is why so many Bulgarians can understand Standard Macedonian, while Macedonians fail to comprehend Standard Bulgarian.) Bezimenen (talk) 21:52, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Transliteration of ў + its usage

Hello, should we use ў as a symbol when writing out a word in Bulgarian? It's one thing to use it like that as a respelling in the pronunciation section, but what about e.g. in the headword? Should links to уиски read ўи́ски? If so, I guess we should have ў convert to <w>, but I'm just wondering what you think as to spellings. @Bezimenen @Chernorizets @Benwing2 @Atitarev Kiril kovachev (talk・contribs) 14:09, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

@Kiril kovachev no. The goal of transliteration is to convert from one script to another, not to be a faithful representation of phonology. ў is not a letter in the Bulgarian Cyrillic alphabet, so we should definitely not be using it on headwords. Here is the Wikipedia article about the transliteration scheme implemented here, and how it varies by Cyrillic-script language. Chernorizets (talk) 19:29, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

@Chernorizets@Kiril kovachev There are four separate issues. (1) How we spell words in Cyrillic in the page name; (2) how we spell words in Cyrillic when linking to pages; (3) how we transliterate words; (4) how we respell words when indicating pronunciation. Generally, the page name reflects how the word is commonly spelled "out in the wild", while the links may have extra information (e.g. stress and length marks). In Russian, for example, for (1) we reflect the actual "in the wild" spelling except for using ё consistently (and we provide soft links from ё-less spellings to spellings with ё); for (2) we include ё in links as well as acute accents indicating the position of stress; for (3) we transliterate with ё and accents represented, and also use ɛ in place of e to indicate unexpectedly non-palatalized consonants before Cyrillic е; and for (4) we include all of the information in (3) plus grave accents indicating secondary stress, plus information on how consonants written geminate are pronounced (this is currently indicated through a separate parameter but IMO would be better indicated through respelling). For Bulgarian, (1) represents the actual spelling in the wild, (2) includes acute accents indicating stress, (3) likewise, and (4) includes things like ў. Benwing2 (talk) 20:02, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

@Benwing2 @Chernorizets I see. Thanks for the clarifications; in essence, I guess, nothing needs to change then. That makes things easy then :) Kiril kovachev (talk・contribs) 20:44, 17 August 2023 (UTC)