Appendix talk:Swahili noun classes
Add topicThe system of noun classes is not unique or unusual. It's also found in the Nguni languages (related to kiSwahili).
- It’s found in the Niger-Congo languages and the Bantu languages (where one has borrowed it from the other). Unusual means in relation to most of the world’s 250 or so language families, and especially to those commonly known or studied by Americans, Brits, Canadians and Australians. —Stephen 14:15, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Er, why are some noun classes missing (i.e. 14, the abstract class)? Is this intentional, or can I add it? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:03, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
- In ancient times, there were 22 noun cases, but some have been lost in each of the modern descendent languages. Different Bantu languages retain different ones of the original 22. That’s why there are some gaps in the numbers. Also, there are different ways of ordering the classes. I believe that what you are calling class 14, the abstract class, is what we call class 11, the u- class. Some systems break 11 into two or more separate classes, but in this system, the u- class is a single class. —Stephen (Talk) 20:27, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
- I see. Thank you. I learned the classes rather differently (well, no Bantu language simplifies anywhere to close to how much Swahili does). While you're at it, could you please review (and if necessary, fix) my translation at umoja? It's to be Foreign Word of the Day for the first day of Kwanzaa. Thanks again --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:33, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
- Why did you add "patriotic"? I know that Google Translate suggested it, but I couldn't figure out why, and (deprecated template usage) mzalendo didn't seem to have that connotation in the Kenyan parliamentary debate (in English) which I found its use in. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:10, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
- The noun mzalendo means patriot, nationalist. I can’t think of a way to use nationalist or nationalistic in that sentence. —Stephen (Talk) 06:01, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
- There is at least one other meaning. See here (last ¶, p. 168). Maybe it means (deprecated template usage) national? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:13, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, it says that they use it to mean native. —Stephen (Talk) 06:54, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
Terminology for noun classes
[edit]I am switching this page to use the terminology for noun classes that {{sw-noun}} produces, for example m-mi instead of the numerical values. If you disagree with this change, please comment here. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:18, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
- Granted, it's still a mess. I don't know enough yet to make it actually good, but I'll see if I can improve it. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:30, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
- I think it's pretty comprehensive now, and all Swahili nouns link to it (unless they are missing their noun class). —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:50, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
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You wrote: The singular prefix only is also used to form language names from places where the language is spoken, like Uingereza (“England”) → Kiingereza (“English”).
This is not quite correct, I don't think. The use of the ki prefix by itself does not produce an adjective from a noun: if I am not mistaken, it needs to follow "ya-, wa-, cha-, as in "lugha ya Kiswahili", "lugha ya Kiingereza", "Kanisa la Kiangilikana", "Kanisa la "Kiluteri", where "ya-ki" seems to serve the adjective-making function of "an" in "Lutheran" or "Anglican" in English. Incidentally, since "Swahili" as in "the Swahili language" is already functioning adjectivally, there is no need to retain the ki prefix when translating from Swahili to English. That is, "lugha ya Kiswahili" becomes "the Swahili language", and not "the Kiswahili language". It is a common to hear people saying, I am learning to speak Kiswahili" which is aswrong as saying "I am learning to speak Kienglish", since the work done by the "Ki"in Swahili is already done in English by the "ish". — This unsigned comment was added by 197.250.53.98 (talk) at 16:58, 27 November 2015.
- That's not fully correct. Even when not in the possessive concord + noun construction, ki- is used to mark its noun class, and all language names (really lect names, because dialects and ways of speaking are included) belong in that noun class. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:02, 4 February 2016 (UTC)