Appendix talk:Spanish pronouns

Standarizing pronouns

I standardized the demonstratives so that they all have adjective and pronoun sections. I came across estos, though, which was previously listed as a 'determiner'. Should this be used instead of seperate adjective + pronoun sections (cf. esos), or should we use determiner on all the entries? --Bequw → ¢ • τ 14:30, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I favor calling them all Determiner, because that better describes what they do. Traditionally, they are considered dual Adjective/Pronouns, but that's really what a determiner basically is. However, we should still have a section for them here on the Spanish pronouns appendix, regardless, because they do function like pronouns. --EncycloPetey 21:33, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I thought (deprecated template usage) estos was strictly an adjective-like determiner, with (deprecated template usage) éstos being its pronoun-like counterpart? I mean, that's just a quirk of the writing system, and not a feature of the language itself, but still, seeing as we're indexed by spelling, I think we need to make that distinction. (Our entry for (deprecated template usage) esos seems to suggest otherwise, but it has other problems — perhaps copy-and-paste gone awry? — that leave me unsure how much to trust it.) —Ruakh_TALK 23:42, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

(deprecated template usage) este/(deprecated template usage) estos and (deprecated template usage) ese/(deprecated template usage) esos are demonstrative adjectives, while (deprecated template usage) éste/(deprecated template usage) éstos and (deprecated template usage) ése/(deprecated template usage) ésos are demonstrative pronouns. However, it is permissible to write the pronouns WITHOUT the accent so long as the meaning is clear. What is absolutely prohibited is the writing of the accent on the adjective (as in *éste hombre). As example where the accent would be a requirement to avoid confusion would be "ésta llama" ("this woman is calling"), since "esta llama" means "this flame". But in a sentence like "un libro como ese", you may write either ése (most correct since it’s a pronoun) or ese (acceptable since there can be no confusion). —Stephen 00:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

(This appears to be a mini-discussion of the recent WT:BP#Wholesale conversion to "Determiner", see for example that#Determiner). 'Determiner' seems to be a more specific/accurate term than 'Adjective & Pronoun' in this case, the problem being it's not as widely known. Does anyone know of a Spanish dictionary that classifies words that way (the RAE doesn't). I wouldn't mind experimenting in Spanish-space entries, if people like it's useful. --Bequw → ¢ • τ 15:38, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Are you asking if Spanish dictionaries call both (deprecated template usage) este and (deprecated template usage) éste determinativos? Not that I have ever seen. I don’t see how (deprecated template usage) este and (deprecated template usage) éste can both be the same thing, or why calling them the same thing could possibly be acceptable. —Stephen 16:42, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

(BTW, I think the Spanish is determinante). The more I read, though, the more I think we should leave them be. SIL, on one page categorizes demonstrative pronouns (and adjectival ones) as determiners and on another categorizes demonstrative pronouns as pronouns. In English it's also nicer, because there aren't two, distinctly spelled forms. Let's use 'normal' readers' idea of adjective and pronoun. Determiners would be confusing to readers. We can use Appendix pages and categories to supplement if need be. I'll change the estos. --Bequw → ¢ • τ 20:15, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Agree. I think it's better to keep the separate sections for English speakers who use English Wikt. The finer points of Spanish grammar can be discussed in usage notes and/or appendices, but someone who is looking for a Spanish demonstrative pronoun migh be more than confused to find that we've decided to call it a "determiner". Wiktionary is not paper, space and links to pages with more information are not big problems. Physchim62 16:28, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Correct translation of vuestra merced?

I am not a specialist, but in my opinion vuestra merced is best translated by your grace, and not your mercy, which is a litteral translation that does not correspond to any English salutation. However, I will not change it myself before somebody more at ease with Spanish asserts what I just wrote. Jabial 23:24, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

You're right; "your grace" is more appropriate. I'll change it. Ultimateria 23:27, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Tuteo

It seems to me that the 'default' of tuteo merits an explicit description in a short subsection at the start of Appendix:Spanish_pronouns#Regional_and_temporal_variation. —DIV (1.145.121.82 02:00, 29 April 2024 (UTC))