Wiktionary talk:Kyrgyz transliteration
Add topicI'll take your word for it that k is better (certainly, it's easier for me), but that means a bunch of Kyrgyz entries need their translit fixed if you feel like dealing with it. I think the entries also tend to disagree with you about how to transliterate ы. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:01, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- I answered below before I saw your message. The person creating entries worked with multiple languages. I tried to talk to him/her but they never answered. It's often better to give any romanisation than no romanisation at all, though. Both "y" and "ı" are better understood by English speakers than Cyrillic "ы" but "ı" is used by Kyrgyz, perhaps of the influence of other Turkic speakers. Yes, we need to change. The main reason is, this is how Kyrgyz is written when using Roman letters. There are texts in romanised Kyrgyz, also online. Perhaps, letter "ы" need to be reviewed, I used "ı" when creating the page after checking what is actually used. w:Romanization_of_Kyrgyz doesn't reflect the reality, especially for letters ш and ч. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:20, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- (assuming you have seen my other message below) Then why don't we just copy whatever books in romanized Kyrgyz do? Why create a new standard? And why are both ж and ц transliterated as c? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:55, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Romanising "к"
[edit]Kazakh, Kyrgyz, Tatar and Bashkir don't have a long tradition of writing in Roman letters, it's not standardised and there are many cognates in other Turkic languages where there is "k", not "q". Azeri "q" often corresponds Turkish "k", Bashkir "ҡ" (q) corresponds Tatar "к", which is also romanised as "q". Kazakh "қ" (q) corresponds Kyrgyz "к" (k). The Roman spelling of words in Cyrillic based Turkic languages is often influenced by other languages. Anyway, Kyrgyz "к" is romanised as "k" by most standards, any entries with "q" should be changed eventually to use "k".
- Kazakh к, қ - k, q
- Kyrgyz к - k
- Bashkir к, ҡ - k, q
- Tatar к - q
--Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:10, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- Well, I'd prefer consistency within a language myself — all one way or all the other. The only good thing about a Turkic spelling that imitates Latin Tatar or Turkish (i.e. q) is that we seem to be doing that for the rest of the letters here. I'm more used to the Slavic ш→š, ч→č, but we use the Turkic ş and ç instead. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:19, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- There is no controversy here, Kazakh and Bashkir also have "к", which is romanised as q but they also have "қ" (kk) and "ҡ" (ba). Tatar is more odd and quite inconsistent. It's actually hard to make a one-to-one mapping in Tatar, since the Roman spelling for romanised Tatar is often borrowed from Turkish, Crimean Tatar, even ignoring the number of letters in the Cyrillic, depending on where they live and their preferences and knowledge. Kyrgyz is closer to Turkish when romanised, than to Kazakh. Using Roman "c" for "ж" is also closer to Turkish and Azeri, even though some documents use "ž", especially in borrowings from Russian and European languages, "c" is always used in native Turkic words. As for ш→š, ч→č, that would be my preference too but it's better to keep Turkic Roman spellings consistent where possible, e.g. "kişi" (man) is immediately understood by Turkic speakers, even though Uzbek (which uses no diacritics) has "kishi". --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 06:05, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- OK, but what about Ъ, Ы, and Ь? There must be a better way for those three, at least Turkish ı for ы. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:10, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- There is no controversy here, Kazakh and Bashkir also have "к", which is romanised as q but they also have "қ" (kk) and "ҡ" (ba). Tatar is more odd and quite inconsistent. It's actually hard to make a one-to-one mapping in Tatar, since the Roman spelling for romanised Tatar is often borrowed from Turkish, Crimean Tatar, even ignoring the number of letters in the Cyrillic, depending on where they live and their preferences and knowledge. Kyrgyz is closer to Turkish when romanised, than to Kazakh. Using Roman "c" for "ж" is also closer to Turkish and Azeri, even though some documents use "ž", especially in borrowings from Russian and European languages, "c" is always used in native Turkic words. As for ш→š, ч→č, that would be my preference too but it's better to keep Turkic Roman spellings consistent where possible, e.g. "kişi" (man) is immediately understood by Turkic speakers, even though Uzbek (which uses no diacritics) has "kishi". --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 06:05, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- Not sure what you mean and what you suggest. Yes, Turkish "ı" is used for "ы". Romanisation for "ъ" and "ь" must have been copied from the older Russian TR page, which also matches Wikipedia articles. They are only used in borrowings from Russian, anyway and they don't represent any sound but are special signs. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 06:41, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry, misunderstanding. Sometimes I'm not sure that I am a native speaker of English :) You didn't answer why you don't want to make it bijective by cleaning up the c/c ж/ц thing, though. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:52, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- Aha! Even you break your rules! ;) —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 07:01, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- OK, we should stick to "c" and "ts". Russian (European) borrowings were using ž and c for ж and ц, native Turkic words - c for ж and letter ц is not used in native Kyrgyz words but is romanised as ts in all standard romanisations, except for ISO 9 (c).
- Not sure about this edit. What do you mean?! өңү = öñü as per page. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 07:07, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- Well, now as per page: [1] —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 07:14, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- Not sure about this edit. What do you mean?! өңү = öñü as per page. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 07:07, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- Oops. Thanks, not sure why I had "ɵ". I was certain we had "ö". --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 07:21, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- Well, I prefer ö too. BTW, see also Wiktionary talk:Bashkir transliteration. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 07:36, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
J vs y
[edit]Currently we use yo, yu, and ya but for some reason й is j. Using j would be more Slavic, but because we decided to choose more Turkic letters like ç instead, I think we should change j to y to match Turkish orthography. Does this sound good? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:53, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
- Ok, I think. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:18, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
- As you noticed, Kyrgyz transliteration is now Luacized. I invoked it at
{{ky-noun}}, which now doesn't require transliteration any more. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:47, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
- As you noticed, Kyrgyz transliteration is now Luacized. I invoked it at
How do you feel about ь being transliterated with ’ ? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:30, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
- I noticed that, very interesting. Why ’, not ʹ? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:39, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
- It looks better (at least to me) but is harder to input. With Lua, we don't have to worry about how hard it is to input, so why not use it? It also stands out more, so a bit easier to read. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:47, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
- A benefit of ʹ over ’ is that it's easier to select the whole word by double-clicking on it, e.g. "бездельничать" (to loaf) try "bezdélʹničatʹ" and "bezdél’ničat’". It also matches current East Slavic languages method, the words with "ь" are usually Russian. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:03, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
- Makes no difference on my computer. Also, I would prefer it for Russian, but Russian isn't fully automated yet so... —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:38, 14 March 2013 (UTC)