User talk:TAKASUGI Shinji/2019

Linguistic question

Hi. I have never studied linguistics before and I would like to know the name of a concept I had in mind. let's call it “word”, then:

• かえる, 帰る, 返る and kaeru (kaeru) are different spellings of the same “word”
• kaeru “to return” and kaeru “frog” are different “words”
• kaeru “to return” and kaetta “returned” are different “words”

Do you know what such a concept of “word” is called in linguistics? (Also pinging @Suzukaze-c)

By the way, what do you think about this suggestion (adapted from my userpage)?

Don't overuse the word “reading” in etymology sections like this:

The sora reading for 空 changes to zora as an instance of rendaku (連濁). The reading was aosora until roughly the mid-Meiji Period.

Someone who is raised up in a Japanese-speaking family, but has never been exposed to the Japanese writing system, will still pronounce the word as aozora. This makes it clear that sora undergoes rendaku whether it is a “reading”. A better wording would be:

The sora changes to zora as an instance of rendaku (連濁). The word was phonographically attested in the shape aosora until roughly the mid-Meiji Period.

--Dine2016 (talk) 10:20, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Also pinging @Poketalker. --Dine2016 (talk) 10:29, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Kaeru and kaetta are different forms of the same word.

Reading probably means “pronunciation” there, but it is not a good word to describe a phonological change. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 12:33, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

@Dine2016: Important: "kaeru" is not a Japanese word or a "spelling". It's a romanisation of Japanese words written in kana or kanji. You can use it in a discussion if you don't feel like entering native script or copying but it's an important distinction. The fact that we keep romanisation for two languages made this fact blurred. I thought I'd mention, since your 2nd line looks weird to me. :) --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 13:43, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. Actually what I had in mind was this:

For each Japanese word (e.g. ikikaeru “to revive”), one spelling (e.g. 生き返る) is chosen by the editors as the main entry on Wiktionary to hold all the information of the word. The main entry uses {{ja-spellings}} to list and link to the alternative spellings (e.g. いきかえる), and the alternative spellings use {{ja-see}} to provide soft redirects to the main entry. (In the case of multiple etymology sections, each etymology section could be a main entry or a soft redirect, as is the case at 貴方.)

Here the definition of a “word” is obviously different from the lexeme in linguistics, and “main entry” different from the lemma form, because the soft redirection is between different spellings of a given form instead of between different forms of a word. However, using the term “forms” might sound strange (e.g. “The Japanese section describes n word forms if it has n etymology sections”). Do you have better terms?

@Atitarev: You're right. I was under the mistaken belief that romaji was an official writing system of Japanese. However, it can transcribe speech directly rather than from kana or kanji. --Dine2016 (talk) 05:52, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

두음법칙 in South Korea

Here is the source. Sincerely, Park. https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/두음_법칙

• 杜詩諺解 初刊本 (성종 12년 : 1481)“셩이 니가 (姓李的)”
• 訓蒙字會 [중종 22년(1527). 아동에게 한자의 音과 뜻을 정확하게 가르치기 위해 지은 책] 李’ 자의 音과 뜻을 ‘외엿니’ 라고 했음 [참고로 ‘柳’ 자는 ‘버들류’로 되어 있음)
• 東國新續三綱行實 [광해군 9년(1617)에 왕명에 의하여 국가 사업으로 편찬된 孝子, 忠臣, 烈女의 기록집] 李壽慶(니슈경), 李慶男(니경남), 李宅仁(니?인) 등 ‘李’지는 모두 ‘니’로 표기됨
• 癸丑日記 (光海君 때, 仁穆大妃 內人) 니이첨(李爾瞻) 니덕형(李德馨) 니?복(李恒福)
• 古時調集 南薰太平歌 [純祖 때에 편찬된 것으로 추정됨. 作者 未詳의 時調]“옛날에 니??도”“그곳에 니젹선(李謫仙) 소동파
• 한글로 된 小說에 있는 ‘니’씨 姓 표기 春香傳 : “젼나도 남원부? 니등이 ? 아?을 두어스니 ”九雲夢 : “니쇼화(李蕭和)은 황졔의 ?이니”意幽堂集 : “니번은 뉼곡 형이라 파쥐예 잇더니 서울 드러와“니탁 - 니상국 탁은 셩묘됴 명신이라
• 獨立新聞 창간호 [1896년 4월 7일 창간. 최초의 한글 전용 신문] 관찰사 니건하. 문쳔 군슈 니한용. 회계원 출납과장 니용교” 등 모두 ‘니’로 표기됨.

‘李’ 자를 ‘리’로 표기한 것은 조선왕조 초기에도 간혹 용례가 있지만 주로 후기에 많이 나타난다.

• 內訓 - 李링氏씽女녕戒갱예 닐오?(선조 때. 초간본은 성종 때)
• 東國正韻 - ‘링’로 표기됨 (上聲. 5권 16장)
• 三韻聲彙(영조 27년 : 1751년) - ‘리’로 표기됨
• 李鳳雲의 국문정리 서문 (1897) “리봉운 ?셔(李鳳雲 自序)”
• 兪吉濬의 朝鮮文典 (1906) “리슌신(李舜臣)은 인명이니”
• 崔南善의 新字典(1915) - ‘리’로 표기됨 < ‘이’로 表記된 用例 >‘李’ 자를 ‘이’로 표기한 용례는 많지 않다. 주로 문학 작품에서 찾아볼 수 있다.
• 烈女春香守節歌 “잇? 삼쳔동 이할임(李翰林)이라 하난 양반이 잇스?”
• 歌辭 作品 - 朴履和의 萬古歌 “이??(李太白)"

It doesn't matter when the spellings were changed so. What matters here on Wiktionary is whether or not they are used now. You can insist that the Korean orthography was altered by the Japanese colonial government, but you cannot delete correct information of today's Korean. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 03:21, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

"이" solely by itself has no specific meaning unless specified by its underlying hanja or derived from context. I deleted the words that are left blank. Also, These "이" are not related with surname 이(李), which should have been written 리(李). Sincerely, Park.

박

Why did you revert to a previous version? 박동(beat,搏動) 심장은 펌프와 비슷한 작용을 하는데, 주기적으로 수축하여 혈액을 동맥 속으로 밀어내고, 이완하여 정맥에서 오는 혈액을 내강에 채운다. 이때 판막의 개폐가 차례로 일어나 혈액의 역류를 막음으로써 펌프 작용이 원활하게 반복되고 이에 의하여 혈액이 온몸을 순환한다. 이와 같은 심장의 수축과 확장의 반복을 박동이라고 한다

I’m sorry I didn’t notice that. I reverted your edit because you used incorrect sections like “Sino-Korean 박” and “English Korean 박”. That’s all. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 09:45, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

X

Hi,

Sorry to bother you but when you have time, could you check these edits made by X?

Especially the first ones where he claims he used 大辞林 and NHK日本語発音アクセント辞典 as references for the pitch accent.

Thank you. --Thibaut120094 (talk) 13:33, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

@Thibaut120094, see also User_talk:2A01:CB05:8B96:E000:C08A:F8AA:ABEE:4968, which appears to be the same user.

(For the record, I really hate how IPv6 addresses cause such fragmentation with anons -- it's impossible to keep track, and impossible to communicate.)

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:49, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Hi Eirikr, thanks for the info, now I know he doesn't have the books and that he's lying.

It doesn't surprise me, he has been banned from the French Wiktionary and globally banned (see Special:Contributions/IJKL, fr:User:X, [1], etc.), he's known for adding false information and ignoring messages or decisions of the community.

Judging by his recent edits, I think he totally ignored Suzukaze-c's message and keeps adding the template with |acc_ref= and random sources.

btw, most ISPs assign a IPv6 /64 range to their users, so you can track edits made by a user or block this user by using the first four blocks and then add ::/64, like this: Special:Contributions/2A01:CB05:8B96:E000::/64 --Thibaut120094 (talk) 20:09, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

@Thibaut120094:

• I've seen some cases where backtracking the IP address to the top 32 bits was needed, as at Special:Contributions/2A00:23C6::/32.

Using the /64 or /32 suffixes is a useful trick, but there are shortcomings -- you can't see whether a page has been patrolled on the Contributions page for blanket addresses, only for specific IPv6 addresses; and there's no blanket-address talk page, only for specific ones. So if you try to communicate using the Talk page for one specific IPv6, and the user's next visit to the site is via a different address, they'll potentially never see the message. And it looks like any blocks have to be blanket /64 at least, possibly even /32, in order to be effective. <...sigh.../>

• Really useful to know that this particular IP user appears to be a known quantity. I'd wondered at a spate of edits to Japanese entries from a set of IPv6 addresses originating in France, which seemed odd. Their edits appear to be only occasionally correct, with many edits problematic in whole or in part (non-existent references, incorrect spellings, bad formatting, etc.).

I wonder if we should push for a range ban? And if so, how big of one (/64 or /32)?

Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:49, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Thank you guys for your check. The user in question is permanently blocked on the French Wiktionary, and we don’t need a further reason to block him/her here. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 23:05, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

I don't understand, if he’s doing the same kind of vandalism and weird edits he does on fr.wiktionary, frwiki and other wikis here, he should be blocked.

@Eirikr: I would say /64 to not disturb other users. --Thibaut120094 (talk) 12:55, 14 August 2019 (UTC) modified at 19:33, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

I mean we can block him without an additional reason. Sorry for ambiguity. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 22:15, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

I've set up a block, currently for 3 months, as visible at Special:Contributions/2A01:CB05:8B96:E000:0:0:0:0/64. If that should be longer, we can certainly change the settings. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 00:32, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 03:09, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

He's back, please block him, all his edits must be checked, especially about the Japanese pitch accent. --Thibaut120094 (talk) 16:41, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz, I don't suppose you have any advice on possibly creating an abuse filter for this anon? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:18, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

I'll look into it. It's a little tricky because there are good editors using the same ISP, though probably not in exactly the same IP range. I'm quite familiar with this moron- I've blocked them several times over the years for insanity like adding Old English and Gothic translations for "television"- they seem to view the world's languages as their own private conlang playground. Ask any of the people like @Rua who've been working on reconstruction entries for more than a few years about the "missing informations" IP, aka "Inkbolt" and you'll get an earful. I don't remember where they started editing from, but in recent years they've been geolocating to Le Mans, or thereabouts. They're very stubborn and very persistent. They do a fair amount of good edits, but you can't predict when they're going to go off into the weeds, and I don't know the languages they edit in well enough to tell the difference most of the time. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:44, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

@Thibaut120094, I'd blocked that user for a month after vetting several grotty edits. Then after noticing that this was the exact same /64 address as we discussed previously, I extended the block to six months. We shall have to adjust as appropriate. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:11, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Thank you guys. I didn’t notice his recent activity. The problem is that his edits are not always wrong. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 10:54, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Japについて

こんばんは！Loup and Lawです。さて、貴殿は「Jap」の翻訳一覧から「日本人」を取り消しなさいましたが、何故でしょうか。あれはalcやジーニアス英和辞典に「ジャップ、日本人」と記述されているのを出典としたものです。取り消す理由は何かお聞かせ下さい。Loup and Law (talk) 10:33, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Because the two words belong to different registers. The Japanese word “日本人” is neutral and not pejorative at all. It is a translation of Japanese, not of Jap. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 11:58, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

なるほど、理解できました。ありがとうございます！Loup and Law (talk) 12:24, 15 August 2019 (UTC)