User talk:Swaare

boschjesman

I have a few comments about the Dutch entry you created. First of all, the spelling with sch is obsolete and the lower-case spelling is very rare, so this should not be a lemma form. The second plural was also incorrect, the form ending on -man is singular. Generally speaking, demonyms that haven't been borrowed receive some kind of plural ending. (Compare this to San and Khoikhoi, which have been borrowed and are both singular and plural.) I assume it was based on the plurals of man, but the second plural is rather restricted, as explained by the usage notes. It is advisable to look these things up before creating an entry, in this case the Dutch Wikipedia article about the San would have indicated the correct current plural form. ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 09:18, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

@Lingo Bingo Dingo – Thanks for taking the time to correct my contribution. I did some research, but it seems that it was not enough. I try to contribute as much as I can, though I should stick creating posts for languages I personally know from now on to avoid misinformation. Swaare (talk) 15:12, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Well, I don't think you have to refrain from editing Dutch, after all you got a fair bit right with that entry, but I'd recommend sticking to terms that you can easily look up in reference works. Demonyms unfortunately are poorly covered by Dutch dictionaries, but the Woordenlijst Nederlandse Taal does include them in the current official spelling (but beware that not all attestable words are attested in the official spelling, and note that this list doesn't distinguish between masculine and feminine). In addition, recognised demonyms are always capitalised according to current Dutch spelling, but nicknames for demographic groups often aren't. ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 07:11, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

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Fala

Hey, I noticed you've been doing a lot of edits for Fala. Are you a native speaker? There aren't many lemmas for it so although I don't really speak it at all, I've been trying my best to make some good entries for it. But I started to notice a problem and the only other person in Category:User fax is a beginner just like me :(

I'm confused about the orthography. {{R:fax:Diccionariu}} and {{R:fax:Frades}} disagree a lot on how to spell things, with the latter employing SSs, -o endings and a few apparently completely innovative formations like ejemplín (noun).

And Diccionariu may even have a few mistakes (see intrivista, I put a {{attention}} in it). I attempted to look into it online but found no subreddits, Discord servers or online communities for it at all. I only found two more sources, each of them having their own spellings! I came out more confused than before; there are four spelling... methods? standards? I'm not sure what's standard at all actually, or if there's even one. Do you have any idea? MedK1 (talk) 03:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Hi @MedK1, I appreciate your interest in A Fala. Unfortunately I'm not a native speaker, as you I wanted to include this language in Wiktionary. Truth is there is no standard, and probably never will. People of the three villages where Fala is spoken speak differently to each other, and making one of them the standard would be unfair to the other two.

The orthography proposal by linguist Miroslav Valeš (author of the Diccionariu) is the first to include support for all three varieties treated equally. Frades, a native speaker pioneer in documenting his language, talked in Mañegu and his orthography reflects that. Also I have notice Valeš's orthography is being used in schools (!). For these reasons I suggest adopting this as the (scholarly) standard in Wiktionary.

The web versions and the Android dictionary app of the Diccionariu are more easily updatable; we switched from the paper version for {{R:fax:Diccionariu}} some time ago for this reason. I think intrevista is a typo but I can contact Valeš and his team just in case, as I did before.

Maybe @Santi2222 can provide further comments.

Thanks again, cheers — sware • 🗣 • 🏲 17:03, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks so much for the speedy response, @Swaare! I'd really appreciate it if you could talk to Valeš and his team about intrevista!

Knowing that Valeš's orthography is being taught in schools is very reassuring; I'm glad that there's reliable, real-world usage for it! I am to believe the other ones are confined to individual writers and websites, yes? Where did you get this information? I'd love to learn more!

I suppose in that case we don't need to include the Xalicionariu and the other orthography proposal PDF (both linked from my user page). Ideally we'd have books to draw quotes and extra material from (as well as confirm to our readers that we're documenting the best-accepted proposal!), but my attempts to find those only yielded in more orthography proposals... MedK1 (talk) 19:16, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

@MedK1: Valeš (MV from now on) orthography is rather recent (2021) so text production hasn't had time to be extensive. Fortunately, conservation efforts are stronger today, and with (at least partial) scholarization in Fala, there are, for example, short stories for kids.

I don't know if there is precedence for orthography-adapted quotes. For example, Aragonese has recently gained an official, normative orthography. Texts in Fala are usually accompanied with the village of the author, thus letting the reader know the variety. In case of being written in an adhoc orthography, it can be easily converted.

Also, MV's team also produced a lexicographical database from which the Diccionariu was constructed. It includes recordings and texts written in the different varieties (I don't recall now if adapted or not, I should check). It's password-protected, and it was shared with me in my exchange with MV. I can share it with you via email or another platform that you prefer. MV and Centro Interdisciplinar de Documentação Linguística e Social (CIDLeS) are aware of our work and they support it, so I'm guessing there's no problem with it.

On a final note, that last link is a proposal for Extremaduran (Extremeño/Estremeñu), not Fala. I understand the confusion though. Cheers, sware • 🗣 • 🏲 20:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Alright, @Swaare, I've sent you an e-mail! Here's hoping it reached you fine.

On a final note, that last link is a proposal for Extremaduran (Extremeño/Estremeñu)

What a blunder. My apologies! MedK1 (talk) 02:01, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree that we should stick to the orthography used in the dictionary for two main reasons:

• Our main source on Fala uses that orthography.
• It seems like the orthography has been adopted to some degree by speakers. Also, it should be noted that an early version of the orthography was devised before the dictionary was published (see here) in collaboration with a local cultural association.

Regardless of that, if a word has been used by Frades with another spelling, there should be no issues in creating it as a soft redirect to the main entry (I made {{fax-form-FG}} with this in mind a while ago). Santi2222 (talk) 21:55, 19 January 2025 (UTC)