User talk:Ajellid-n-arif/archive/2021
Latest comment: 3 years ago by Metaknowledge in topic tamart
Riffian declension
[edit]Hey Ajellid!
Good job on your Tarifit contributions! I have a question on the declension table. How can a word be masculine but also have a feminine form? For example aɣemmar. — فين أخاي (تكلم معاي · ما ساهمت) 16:05, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Hi, my pleasure, and thank you for the corrections I'm still learning as well.
- Most nouns in Tarifit have a masculine / feminine form, with the feminine having the same meaning except it usually being diminitive, so I try to use the masculine form as the main entry and put the feminine in the declension table. Sometimes feminine forms do have a seperate meaning, if it does I create a seperate entry for it, not sure if this is the best way of handling it. Thanks Ajellid-n-arif (talk) 16:19, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- I see then. If that is the case, it is probably better to remove it from the declension table and add the diminutive to the headword. Less confusing. — فين أخاي (تكلم معاي · ما ساهمت) 16:46, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Alright I'll do that approach then. What if a word has a masculine form like afunas (“ox”) and feminine form tafunast (“cow”), they have seperate definitions how would I best link both forms on each page, use the 'see also' section?Ajellid-n-arif (talk) 21:51, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
Azul, King of the Rif! I'm glad to see we have somebody interested in working on this. I noticed that some of your entries seem to belong to a surprisingly conservative variety of Tarifit, maybe Beni Iznasen; this paper has a neat map on the last page of vocalisation of *r, showing that most of the Rif has lost that r in tamart, for example. Given the diversity within Tarifit, we should find a way to mark which dialect each form is from, and ideally choose one dialect (e.g. that of Nador) to be the standard where all entries are centralised. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:28, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
- Azul, Metaknowledge, yes correct some variaties of Tarifit stopped vocalisation of the *r. But I made the decision to handle it similarly to English and write the *r even if it's not vocalised, for the following reasons:
- Even if an *r is not vocalised in one form it can be vocalised in another, this happenens especially in plural forms and verb conjugation. Example: awessā (old man) > iwessura (old men), tawwuāt (door) > tiwwura (doors). And verbs: zā (to see) > yezar i t (he sees him), depending on whether the non-rhotic word is followed by another vowel.
- non-rhoticity happens to the phonemes -ar,-ur,-ir and -er. But depending on variety these are pronounced differently: -ar, -er change to -ā (long a), -ir to -ā or -yā, -ur to -uā or -wā. And even within dialects this changes from case to case for example the city Nador, is pronounced by people in Nador as Naduā or Nadā. So then the question becomes which way of writing do we favour?
- I'm opting to create cohesion between each variety, that's why I chose to retain the slightly more archaic pronounciation (inculing the R) as the standard since that's where all other dialects diverged from, and include all other varietal pronounciations under "alternative forms", and create entries for each alternative form that requires one. I hope that makes sense. — ⵜⵉⴼⴰⵡⵉⵏ ⴱⴰⴱ ⵏ ⵜⴼⴰⵡⵜ (talk) 11:20, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- I understand your interest in using the more archaic form as the standard, but it still seems to me like an odd way to present a language whose core area says things like ajeǧǧid instead of ajellid, etc. In any case, we need to mark every form with which dialects it is used in. Serhoual's dictionary might be a good model to follow (although it sometimes confuses me or doesn't list dialects). —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:16, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- Aside from retain *r, I'm happy to make ǧǧ words the standard entry instead of ll. FYI I'm not an expert at all the dialect's specific word pronounciations, but Serhoual's dictionary is a good source for this considering the limiting sources, Serhoual also retains non-vocalised *r in this dictionary for each entry. — ⵜⵉⴼⴰⵡⵉⵏ ⴱⴰⴱ ⵏ ⵜⴼⴰⵡⵜ (talk) 20:42, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- Well, we could try to copy Serhoual's model, but I don't know if you want to follow practices like marking spirantisation (e.g. for ajellid Serhoual p. 234 has the lemma at ajeǧiḏ). The most important thing is that we are careful to mark which dialect each word comes from. (And Serhoual is sometimes not very careful, e.g. in his entry for fus, he includes afus without any dialect-marking, but I'm pretty sure that's only used in other Moroccan Tamazight varieties, not Tarifit.) How about we use ajellid as a test entry — do you want to give it a try? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:24, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- What is the best way to mark the dialect of a lemma, since ajellid is the Bni Iznassen dialect variety how would I include this? Not sure which dialect uses afus, but it could be included to make sense of the construct state ufus, initial '-a' in nouns is sometimes dropped in Tarifit, but always re-appears in the construct state. I'll give ajellid a try.
- You can use
{{lb}}on the definition line, and{{q}}in an alternative forms section for now. (I can create better infrastructure later, but this is just a mock-up.) Let me know if you want me to do a first pass at it. As for afus, the lack of the initial a- there is a classic Zenati trait, so any Riffian dialect would have fus... but maybe Serhoual was thinking of Senhaja de Sraïr, which isn't actually Riffian. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:48, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
- You can use
- What is the best way to mark the dialect of a lemma, since ajellid is the Bni Iznassen dialect variety how would I include this? Not sure which dialect uses afus, but it could be included to make sense of the construct state ufus, initial '-a' in nouns is sometimes dropped in Tarifit, but always re-appears in the construct state. I'll give ajellid a try.
- Well, we could try to copy Serhoual's model, but I don't know if you want to follow practices like marking spirantisation (e.g. for ajellid Serhoual p. 234 has the lemma at ajeǧiḏ). The most important thing is that we are careful to mark which dialect each word comes from. (And Serhoual is sometimes not very careful, e.g. in his entry for fus, he includes afus without any dialect-marking, but I'm pretty sure that's only used in other Moroccan Tamazight varieties, not Tarifit.) How about we use ajellid as a test entry — do you want to give it a try? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:24, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- Aside from retain *r, I'm happy to make ǧǧ words the standard entry instead of ll. FYI I'm not an expert at all the dialect's specific word pronounciations, but Serhoual's dictionary is a good source for this considering the limiting sources, Serhoual also retains non-vocalised *r in this dictionary for each entry. — ⵜⵉⴼⴰⵡⵉⵏ ⴱⴰⴱ ⵏ ⵜⴼⴰⵡⵜ (talk) 20:42, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- I understand your interest in using the more archaic form as the standard, but it still seems to me like an odd way to present a language whose core area says things like ajeǧǧid instead of ajellid, etc. In any case, we need to mark every form with which dialects it is used in. Serhoual's dictionary might be a good model to follow (although it sometimes confuses me or doesn't list dialects). —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:16, 6 March 2021 (UTC)