Template talk:word

RFD discussion: September–December 2021

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for deletion (permalink).

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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Template:word + all related categories

Like Template:PIE word & Template:PIE root, also redundant. Why the hell do we need such specific templates when {{der}}, {{root}}, {{inh}} serve the same job? ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 11:28, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Keep. {{der}}, {{root}}, {{inh}} do not serve the same job of categorisation of terms by words which are not from roots. This template is just the non-language-specific version of {{PIE word}} (which currently has more keep votes than delete votes). Svārtava² • 13:47, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Delete, but my point for consistency between PIE words cat and other languages stands, so I'm not going to use t:PIE word either. Svartava2 (talk) 03:54, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

diff. ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 13:56, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

This will as it is have very less uses in the languages I edit, as most of them derive from roots (whether borrowing, inheritance, or anything else). It will be quite useful in some other cases though. Svārtava² • 14:05, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

@Svartava2: Are you blithely unaware of the fact that you get the cat. Category:Hindi terms inherited from Proto-Indo-European by using {{inh}}? ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 14:18, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

@Inqilābī Not a word-specific cat. A word/root-specific cat shows the end of an etymology. For example, Category:Assamese terms derived from the Proto-Indo-European word *pótis shows that the term(s) in it end(s) at the PIE word. Similarly, a term should be in Category:Sanskrit terms derived from the Proto-Indo-European root *pewH- when its etymology cannot go any further. Svārtava² • 15:44, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

I want to see documentation before I vote. If it remains undocumented I will vote delete. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 14:09, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

It looks like {{word}} is intended as a counterpart of {{PIE word}}, just as {{root}} is the counterpart of {{PIE root}} (now deprecated). Based on my comments in the previous section, before deciding whether {{word}} should be deleted, the prior question that needs answering is whether we should continue categorizing entries into specific categories in the form "English/etc. terms derived from the Proto-Indo-European/etc. word XYZ", or whether "English/etc. terms derived from Proto-Indo-European/etc." is sufficient. — SGconlaw (talk) 16:32, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

In my opinion we should not generally have categories for terms derived from a single word. The Reconstruction namespace page should have the descendants. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 17:35, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

@Vox Sciurorum: well, that requires a separate discussion. "Category:Terms by Proto-Indo-European root by language" and "Category:Terms by Proto-Indo-European word by language" have numerous subcategories in multiple languages. — SGconlaw (talk) 17:46, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Many entries in Category:Terms by Proto-Indo-European word by language shouldn't be in there, but instead in Category:Terms by Proto-Indo-European root by language. --{{victar|talk}} 22:45, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

User:The cool numel has been going around adding {{PIE word}} to entries even though the words have PIE roots. --{{victar|talk}} 00:57, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Shouldn't I? It's like making a category for roots that in and of themselves come from a different root. The cool numel (talk) 08:32, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

@The cool numel: I’m not sure if there is written guidance on this, but I would think that one should only state the ultimate PIE root or word from which a term descends. — SGconlaw (talk) 09:51, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

@Sgconlaw: Then a categoy like English terms derived from the Proto-Indo-European root *strew- shouldn't exist? because *strew- is an extension of *streh₃. -- The cool numel (talk) 10:25, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

@The cool numel: perhaps it shouldn't. I'd take my cue on this from editors who work regularly with PIE. — SGconlaw (talk) 14:08, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

@The cool numel: Compare here, you added {{PIE word|en|bʰértis}}, but the ultimate root *bʰer- exists and therefore {{root|en|ine-pro|*bʰer-}} would have been the appropriate template to use. --{{victar|talk}} 17:24, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

@victar: Yeah I know, but then I also went and added the category of terms derived from *bʰértis as a subcategory of terms derived from *bʰer-. The cool numel (talk) 17:59, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

That's not the intended use of {{PIE word}}. --{{victar|talk}} 18:12, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Delete --{{victar|talk}} 22:45, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Delete — surjection ⟨??⟩ 18:45, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

@Surjection, Victar, Sgconlaw, Erutuon, Imetsia, Kutchkutch, Fenakhay: I do agree that this template for ALL languages may be excessive, but what about reserving it for protolanguages, like at diff? This way there would be some consistency between PIE and other Protolanguages. Svartava2 (talk) 04:10, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

On a related note: it's not obvious, but mos#Kalasha needs to be fixed as well. Chuck Entz (talk) 12:52, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• RFD-resolved; see WT:Beer parlour/2021/December § T:word. —Svārtava ^{[t•c•u•r]} 11:03, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

-nopro option

In my local Wiki, I've added the -nopro option that suppresses the * prefix and the -pro suffix. The new cats are automatically handled by {{auto cat}} (for free).

|nopro=yes

Used for non proto-languages only when their etymology is undecided. If the derivation becomes decided, this could be changed to {{PIE word}} or {{root}}.

Example

{{word|en|la|quaerō|nopro=yes}} places the page into Category:English terms derived from the Latin word quaerō and Category:English terms derived from Latin.

In my case, I wanted every English word to be found in the oldest set of decided ancestors, and many do not make it as far as proto-languages (for all affixes). In one sense, these highlight the current limits within the comparative method, or areas of further study. Note that whatlinkshere/quaerō does not work on many words such as inquisition that have a see... Dpleibovitz (talk) 20:59, 23 May 2024 (UTC)