Template talk:ja-i

Columns

Hi, maybe I'm missing something but is it possible to use this with only two columns? Some adjectives lack kanji forms, so there is nothing to put in the leftmost field. Thanks! Haplology 05:43, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Sure, I'll have a go at it. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 15:54, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Conjugation, not declension

Declension is for nouns. Japanese nouns do not decline.

Conjugation is for verbs. Japanese い- adjectives are actually stative verbs.

Inflection is for any word that changes due to number, gender, tense, aspect, or other grammatical factors.

I'm looking at changing this template to reflect the proper terminology. I think CodeCat was going for "inflection" across the boards, so I'll touch base with CodeCat and follow suit. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 15:54, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

命令形

@Dine2016, Eirikr: It seems like the 命令形 does not exist, but the template currently says it is かれ. —suzukaze (t・c) 09:13, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

• @suzukaze -- By one analysis, the 命令形 persists in some set expressions: 多(おお)かれ少(すく)なかれ (ōkare sukunakare, “more or less”), 遅(おそ)かれ早(はや)かれ (osokare hayakare) / 早(はや)かれ遅(おそ)かれ (hayakare osokare, “sooner or later”). By another analysis, this かれ is an alternative manifestation of the 仮定形, but since that's supposed to be けれ not かれ, the 命令形 does seem to be the inflectionary form in these expressions. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 03:40, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

  Do set expressions count? w:ja:命令形 says that かれ is for literary Japanese. (Perhaps I was too brief in saying "it does not exist"; rather "it might not exist in modern Japanese"...) —suzukaze (t・c) 04:13, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

suzukaze -- The -かxx forms in general aren't used in modern Japanese, at least in 標準語 (more specifically, the 未然形 and the 命令形). They show up in historical dramas and manga, and in deliberately archaic speech, and native speakers are expected to understand these forms. So I do see some value in having this information somewhere. Perhaps the table needs annotation? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 04:24, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Sure, why not. I just thought it was odd that we have a form that ja.wp singles out as non-existent (unlike かろ, けれ). —suzukaze (t・c) 04:31, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

about formal negative form.

Discussion moved from 赤い#about formal negative form..

Hello, I'm a native Japanese speaker. I think the formal negative form "赤くないです" (Romanization: akaku nai desu) is wrong. Sentence-final particles like "です" (Romanization: desu) aren't used after adjectives. "赤くありません" (Romanization: Akaku ari masen) is right. In Japan "赤くないです" (Romanization: akaku nai desu) is sometimes used, but it's not allowed by the National Institute for Japanese Language yet. If we pursue accurqcy, we should correct it, but "赤くないです" (Romanization: akaku nai desu) is sometimes used, so I float correct it to "赤くありません" (Romanization: Akaku ari masen) and write down "赤くないです" (Romanization: akaku nai desu) as a general misuse. How do you think about my propose? Please tell me your opinion. At last...I'm not a native English speaker, so I might make some mistakes in English. Please allow me. 液体窒素による加熱処理 (talk) 09:52, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

@液体窒素による加熱処理 -- somewhat belatedly, I'd like to reply by pointing out that Wiktionary strives to be descriptive, explaining what is actually used, and not proscriptive, describing what should or should not be used. See also WT:WIN. Since the various ～ないです forms are widely attestable, we should include these in our entries. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 16:52, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. I understood your point. The spread and dominance of 赤くないです is undeniable in today's speech. Now I agree to suggest 赤くないです as the polite negative. It was totally improper that my suggestion contained terms right/wrong, which doesn't match descriptive attitude. However, it is also true that, in formal texts including books, notices and TV news reports, this form seldom appears even today and 赤くありません is much more popular and preferred. When I google "赤くないです" and "赤くはないです" (the latter form can be regared as the virtually same form in this subject), 352000 and 44000 pages hits respectively. On the other hand, when I search "赤くありません" and "赤くはありません", 55000 and 413000 pages hits respectively. I think this result shows 赤くありません should be worth noting, too. It might be better to think of announcing the form 赤くありません as the one perferred in a certain occasion, of course as well as colloquially popular form 赤くないです. Do you agree with me in this respect or do you have another opinion?液体窒素による加熱処理 (talk) 11:47, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Addition of ～から カリ活用 未然形 form to the inflection table

Hi, I propose that we add the ～から 未然形 form to the inflection table. My reasoning for this is largely the same as a similar discussion about the 命令形 above. There are some terms that are derived from the ~から 未然形, such as 少(すく)なからず (sukunakarazu) and 遠(とお)からず (tōkarazu) (and derived terms 当(あ)たらずとも遠(とお)からず (atarazu to mo tōkarazu), 当(あ)たらずといえども遠(とお)からず (atarazu to iedo mo tōkarazu), 近(ちか)からず遠(とお)からず (chikakarazu tōkarazu), 殷鑑遠(いんかんとお)からず (inkan tōkarazu)), 憎(にく)からず (nikukarazu), and 敵(てき)を知(し)り己(おの)を知(し)れば百戦危(ひゃくせんあや)うからず (teki o shiri ono o shireba hyakusen ayaukarazu), 彼(かれ)を知(し)り己(おのれ)を知(し)れば百戦殆(ひゃくせんあや)うからず (kare o shiri onore o shireba hyakusen ayaukarazu), 奢(おご)る平家久(へいけひさ)しからず (ogoru heike hisashikarazu), 驕(おご)る平家(へいけ)は久(ひさ)しからず (ogoru heike wa hisashikarazu). There's also 悪(あ)しからず (ashikarazu) and べからず (bekarazu) (and derived terms すべからず (subekarazu) and 働(はたら)かざる者食(ものく)うべからず (hatarakazaru mono kuu bekarazu)), as well as 山高(やまたか)きが故(ゆえ)に貴(たっと)からず (yama takaki ga yue ni tattokarazu), but it is true that these are derived from Classical adjectives 悪(あ)し (ashi) and べし (beshi) and 高(たか)し (takashi). But like a similar discussion above about the 命令形, like @Eirikr said, "They show up in historical dramas and manga, and in deliberately archaic speech, and native speakers are expected to understand these forms. So I do see some value in having this information somewhere." LittleWhole (talk | ^{中文维基词典用户页}) 04:46, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

• @LittleWhole, I note that many of these are not terms so much as idioms. We have no formalized approach to these, and our de facto approach has apparently been to list these within the entries of any clear lemma portion, as at 桜#Proverbs.
• Some of these are effectively dupes, with instances of alternative forms exhibiting slight differences in construction or particles. If we are to have any entries for these, we should lemmatize once and have the alternatives point to the lemma.

• For instance, 当(あ)たらずとも遠(とお)からず (atarazu to mo tōkarazu) and 当(あ)たらずといえども遠(とお)からず (atarazu to iedo mo tōkarazu) are effectively dupes. We would choose one as the "main" or lemma entry, and the other would be a bare-bones stub entry using {{ja-see}} to refer the user to the lemma entry.

• At least one does not appear to be a lexical item, as すべからず (subekarazu) is Classical す (su, “to do”) + Classical べし (beshi) in the カリ活用 negative form.
• More germane to your main suggestion -- that we add the 未然形 for the カリ活用 to the table -- I cannot support this as suggested. Adding just the ～から endings to the existing ～い adjective inflection tables would be strange and out of place on the one hand (why would this one form have such a different pattern?), and glaringly incomplete on the other (why would we not include the other inflections for the カリ活用 paradigm?).

I would like to make a counter-proposal that would still address your use case, but which would also (I believe) fit better with our overall flow and presentation.

Much as we have the {{ja-conj-bungo}} conjugation template for classical verbs, I suggest that we also have something like a {{ja-kari}} inflection template for classical カリ活用 adjectives. This could clearly show the entire カリ活用 inflection paradigm, and link through to any relevant explanatory material, perhaps a section we might add to WT:AJA. This would also display as a collapsed expandable element by default, simplifying the visual look of the page, and preventing annoyance or confusion among users who might not care about these details.

Would this alternative approach, with a separate inflection table, meet your needs? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:23, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

@Eirikr: That is actually a perfect idea. I would be definitely fine with that. LittleWhole (talk | ^{中文维基词典用户页}) 20:41, 22 February 2021 (UTC)