Template talk:izh-decl/keeli

Plural

@KirillW Yet again an underexplained inflection by Junus. I can find multiple uses of keeliin in Grammatikka, which seems to point to type vesi plurals, but Nirvi insists they all have -loin, -löin plurals. And was I correct to assume that hiiri is inflected following this, or is it yet another inflection for -Ci where C isn't -l- or -s- (I could find hiiri(j)ä though)? Would you know? Thadh (talk) 08:47, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

@Thadh: I will discuss that with Mehmet, but I don't really understand why Junus has put all the "-i" words in only two groups. Firstly, words like keeli, hiiri, saari, etc all have "-ta" partitive, which sets them apart from lehti type words. Secondly, there are lumi-type words which have a "special" change m > n for partitive — they are not mentioned at all, while s > t are mentioned as a special group. The -loi plural came from Soikkola, of which I'm not that knowledgeable, so I have to check what is expected for these words. --KirillW (talk) 21:59, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

@Thadh, indeed looks like that Junus did some overstandardization in paragraph 5. Mehmet has explained that there are two cases where -lo- is added systematically: when a stem ends with either o/ö/u/y, or i (i.e. where i > e doesn't happen). In words, where i > e, the addition of -lo is not systematic. For more details he suggested to check Laanest's «Историческая фонетика и морфология ижорского языка». I'm going to check the details, but I guess it that would affect much the approach, which I believe in this case would be (1) to consider lehti, vahti, vesi and keeli different declension types (it does look like Junus oversimplified things in this regard) and (2) to give those forms as alternatives for at least keeli type (but probably for others with i > e too).

There's also a useful article, where some differences between Ingrian dialects a summarized: https://iling.spb.ru/people/rozhanskiy/izhorskiy_yazyk.pdf. --KirillW (talk) 09:11, 6 June 2021 (UTC)