Template talk:is-conj-s7

Hello

@Krun: I went ahead and made this as I couldn't see any templates that corresponded to bregða - actually, I am wondering if it is irregular, as I can't think of any other verbs with the same conjugation. (I am not a native.) If there are verbs similar enough in conjugation, it should be easy to modify it to cover them as well.

I wanted to ask three things.

First, is how I've done this OK?

Second, where are the classes from? There exist several ways one can group declensions/conjugations, and some of them make more or less sense depending on context, eg. they will capture more or less facts about etymology, will be more or less useful to a learner of the language uninterested in historical linguistics, and/or some will undoubtedly be more or less useful to editors here. Presumably, a divvying up that results in easy generation (which would be almost identical to an exhaustive synchronic-based analysis of paradigms) would be the best, though I personally like to learn about stem-classes as I've an interest in historical linguistics. I can think of a number of works one could reference in such an endeavour. Essentially, I am wondering if and when I come across conjugations/declensions that need adding, how am I to handle it? For the most part, the templates do look exhaustive, but given that is a lot to take in at once, I will only know if new ones need adding after spending a lot of time editing. I am mostly concerned about accidentally producing a sea of junk templates that could be more elegantly compressed down to a smaller number with some forethought.

Third, does bregðiði sound natural to you as a plural imperative for bregða? It strikes me as odd, but it is what is dictated by Template:is-conj. I would expect bregðið. Also, don't question forms differ from imperatives? Should these be added to the templates? Finally, I am concerned a form like bregðandist is wrong - I have never seen this form, so I have no idea what it should be.

Thanks, Iolo ap Rhys (talk) 22:23, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

@Iolo ap Rhys: Hi, and thanks for contributing!

I see you've made a new numbered class, which we shouldn't really do since these are traditional classes based on a historical view of the language – hence the variations in the conjugations within each class. The verb bregða actually belongs to class 3, although we haven't made provision for that particular verb in the relevant template, Template:is-conj-s3. This verb is irregular in the singular past indicative for historical reasons. It might be worthwhile to include it in the class template, but our other option would be to treat it as an irregular verb, in which case we would hard-code the inflected forms into the table but allow a parameter for the left-hand side of compounds such as krossbregða. It doesn't really make sense to make a class like this, with multiple parameters for stem components, if it's really only for one verb.

Strong class 4 and weak class 3 still need templates as well, as neither me nor @BigDom has gotten around to it yet. Then there are the ri-verbs (núa, snúa, gróa and róa) and the somewhat irregular preterite-present verbs, as well as several odd strong verbs, among them some ancient reduplicated verbs. valda and vera also have old templates that need to be changed to use the same layout as the other templates and there are probably more irregular verbs that need their own templates. So, there is a bit left to do, but really, most of the work is done already. I am happy to help with this and can even probably be induced to make a missing template or two myself. BigDom really has been great at figuring out and matching my template methods uncannily well, which is not too easy given the lack of documentation.

Forms like bregðiði do indeed sound natural, but they don't look very natural to me. They are, in my opinion, properly written bregðið þið, etc. (it is natural for the unstressed þið to be pronounced /ðɪ(ð)/); the -iði written style is used in some books, in particular in direct speech in novels, and is rather informal and meant to indicate the most usual pronunciation more directly. As for the mediopassive present participle, this is very rare and unattested for most verbs; however, there is nothing to indicate that it is any less usable with this verb than with the ones for which it is attested. The template does warn that it is rare and only usable in certain sentence types, although we should probably link to an appendix page with a more thorough explanation and usage examples.

– Krun (talk) 02:11, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

@Krun: Hey, thanks for answering.

Ah, they are etymologically classified - I am actually aware of such a system for Norse, but I didn't think to corroborate the two (cf. Noreen, 1923, and Kristoffersen in Bandle et al. pp. 911-925); this was a mistake on my part, and I shall try to compare with materials that I deem thorough if I am to make any more modifications to the templates outside of my talk pages/the sandbox. For Modern Icelandic I had encountered different classifications in different works (mostly in English, aimed at second language students) - they agree in basic facts but disagree in details, so I largely assumed that the templates here wouldn't be based on etymology, and didn't think to check. I've nothing that deals exhaustively with developments between the 1400s and now in Icelandic morphology (I've much on phonology), though some of the works do mention them in summary. But, I am sure between these resources, the grammar I do have of Icelandic, and BÍN I can avoid making too many mistakes, if I can develop a habit of triple checking everything. (I may also get Íslensk tunga soon, but I fear it will be difficult to read, as I struggled somewhat with Barðdal's review.)

I might get playing with the templates on my talk page simply for the sake of learning. I am aware the one I have made here is quite basic; if I get anything together that seems to cover all the examples, then I will make the modifications/the new templates. If the resulting template is too messy/has bad-practice habits in it, there's no explicit need to use it. Iolo ap Rhys (talk) 15:34, 30 December 2020 (UTC)