Template talk:bg-proper noun

Adding a positional or named parameter for plural forms

@Benwing2 @Kiril kovachev before making any changes to the underlying module, I wanted to discuss a feature request - adding the ability to specify the plural of a Bulgarian proper noun directly in the headword. Where that would be particularly helpful is surnames, which generally have a masculine form, a feminine form and a plural form.

Consider, for example, Петро́в (Petróv). The female equivalent is Петро́ва (Petróva), and the plural is Петро́ви (Petróvi). The plural form is used to refer to a group of related people who share a last name, e.g.:

• семéйство Петро́ви (seméjstvo Petróvi), or even just Петро́ви (Petróvi) - the Petrov family, or "the Petrovs" (per English custom)
• Ива́н и Мари́я Петро́ви (Iván i Maríja Petróvi) - Ivan and Maria Petrov (implying they are husband and wife, or relatives)

Plural forms for proper nouns are supported in e.g. {{en-proper noun}}. I don't think it's a good idea to use {{bg-ndecl}} here, because it gives nonsense results:

Declension of Петро́в

	singular	plural
indefinite	Петро́в Petróv	Петро́ви, Петро́вци Petróvi, Petróvci
definite	—	Петро́вите, Петро́вците Petróvite, Petróvcite
count form	—	Петро́ва Petróva

• Петро́ва (Petróva) is given as a count form, which it very much isn't
• Петро́вци (Petróvci) is not a valid plural for the surname
• the definite plural form doesn't make sense for names. An English sentence like "Are the Petrovs coming?" would still be translated with an indefinite form, Ще и́дват ли Петро́ви? (Šte ídvat li Petróvi?)

Any concerns with making a change to support plurals for proper nouns in the headword?

Thanks,

Chernorizets (talk) 02:30, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

@Chernorizets This looks all good to me. Do we already use {{bg-ndecl}} for some surname entries? Kiril kovachev (talk・contribs) 02:35, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

@Kiril kovachev I haven't checked, but I mention it because {{bg-ndecl}} has some support for proper nouns, and we've used it on given names. My personal opinion is that we shouldn't try to bury it further into the rabbit hole of proper names. If anything - if we wanted to get really fancy - I'd have a separate {{bg-name-decl}} template which offloads the ins and outs of given name and surname declension from {{bg-ndecl}}. It could have its own acceleration tags that allow us to quickly create new entries that use correct invocations of {{given name}} and {{surname}}.

As a reasonable (and lightweight) alternative for the time being, I proposed just adding an extra parameter to this template. Chernorizets (talk) 02:42, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

@Chernorizets @Kiril kovachev Generally support for surnames is added to the noun or sometimes adjective declension using a .surname indicator (for Bulgarian it would be /surname since Bulgarian is unique in separating indicators with a slash instead of a dot). This is how {{de-ndecl}} works, for example. I do think in the long run it's better to add it to these existing templates than create new name-specific declension templates, since there would end up being a significant amount of duplication between the two. If we do that, we don't need to add extra params to {{bg-proper noun}} (although we can do that in the short run if you want; but then we'd have to convert all the uses to the new structure once it's in place). Benwing2 (talk) 05:02, 2 December 2023 (UTC)