Talk:zeppelin
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The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for cleanup (permalink).
This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.
As the correct spelling is with a capital Z (Zeppelin) (check Wikipedia and Oxford), taken from Count Zeppelin, I would like to suggest that the bulk of this entry is transferred to Zeppelin. I would try to do it myself, but I'm usually busy elsewhere and it's a task I haven't attempted before. I fell foul of CodeCat when I put Zeppelin in the Swedish entry for zeppelinare, it was altered to zeppelin despite my protests. Donnanz (talk) 00:20, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- I only changed it because forcing users to go to Zeppelin just so that they can be redirected to zeppelin is frustrating. —CodeCat 00:23, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Other dictionaries list the common noun in lower-case form. I suggest we try to get a feel for actual usage before making the capitalized spelling the main lemma. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 08:15, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Google Ngram supports the capitalized common noun. --WikiTiki89 08:21, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Other dictionaries list the common noun in lower-case form. I suggest we try to get a feel for actual usage before making the capitalized spelling the main lemma. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 08:15, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Perhaps the confusion is caused by the line in "After the outstanding success of the Zeppelin design, the term zeppelin in casual use came to refer to all rigid airships." That may have been the case pre-WWII. But calling a Zeppelin made by the Zeppelin factory a zeppelin is like calling a Ford car a ford. Donnanz (talk) 10:38, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Well, not really, because Ford has (AFAIK) never been used as a genericized trademark, which is essentially what zeppelin has become. Insisting on a capital Z in zeppelin is like insisting on a capital A in aspirin or a capital J in jacuzzi. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 11:27, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Do you mean to say you call airships zeppelins? I don't, and never have, only using Zeppelin when referring to an airship produced by Zeppelin themselves. I would suggest that the use of zeppelin as a generic term for airship has died out; we are now in the 21st century, not in the heyday of airships and Zeppelins in the first half of the 20th century. I for one wasn't born until 1947. Donnanz (talk) 13:24, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- On the contrary, people do talk about zeppelins, and they don't remember anything about it being a brand name. I'm one of many who never knew that zeppelin could be capitalized. You're making the mistake of talking about what's logical when discussing usage, which will often lead you astray. In this case, it looks like the capitalized form is more common in Google Books, at least, even after "Led Zeppelin" is taken out of the picture. I'm not so sure about the ratio in everyday, colloquial usage, but it's hard to get real answers on that. I think the capitalized form should be given priority, but it's not so clear and obvious as you think. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:34, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- I'm more than 20 years younger than you, Donnanz, and I think I probably would say, "Look, there's a zeppelin up in the sky" without any regard to the builder, in the extremely unlikely event of my seeing one. Or maybe "blimp". I'm sure I wouldn't say "airship". —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:29, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Hmm, maybe we don't live in the same part of the world. Donnanz (talk) 16:30, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- I'm more than 20 years younger than you, Donnanz, and I think I probably would say, "Look, there's a zeppelin up in the sky" without any regard to the builder, in the extremely unlikely event of my seeing one. Or maybe "blimp". I'm sure I wouldn't say "airship". —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:29, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- On the contrary, people do talk about zeppelins, and they don't remember anything about it being a brand name. I'm one of many who never knew that zeppelin could be capitalized. You're making the mistake of talking about what's logical when discussing usage, which will often lead you astray. In this case, it looks like the capitalized form is more common in Google Books, at least, even after "Led Zeppelin" is taken out of the picture. I'm not so sure about the ratio in everyday, colloquial usage, but it's hard to get real answers on that. I think the capitalized form should be given priority, but it's not so clear and obvious as you think. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:34, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Do you mean to say you call airships zeppelins? I don't, and never have, only using Zeppelin when referring to an airship produced by Zeppelin themselves. I would suggest that the use of zeppelin as a generic term for airship has died out; we are now in the 21st century, not in the heyday of airships and Zeppelins in the first half of the 20th century. I for one wasn't born until 1947. Donnanz (talk) 13:24, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Well, not really, because Ford has (AFAIK) never been used as a genericized trademark, which is essentially what zeppelin has become. Insisting on a capital Z in zeppelin is like insisting on a capital A in aspirin or a capital J in jacuzzi. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 11:27, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Has any decision been reached yet? Donnanz (talk) 17:49, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
- I have moved the content to Zeppelin based on Ngram data suggesting that that form is more common. - -sche (discuss) 03:36, 3 July 2015 (UTC)