Talk:well done
Add topicRFV-senses failed
[edit]See this discussion. — Beobach 06:33, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
The following information has failed Wiktionary's verification process.
Failure to be verified means that insufficient eligible citations of this usage have been found, and the entry therefore does not meet Wiktionary inclusion criteria at the present time. We have archived here the disputed information, the verification discussion, and any documentation gathered so far, pending further evidence.
Do not re-add this information to the article without also submitting proof that it meets Wiktionary's criteria for inclusion.
Means "well cooked" in general but "overcooked" when talking about steak? Seems subjective and debatable. Equinox ◑ 19:23, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
- Is the "well cooked" sense UK? I am only familiar with this with respect to meat, mostly red meats. I have added the sense that I know, but without a regional tag, and also the postpositioned adjective because of its archaic grammar (position). DCDuring TALK 20:04, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
- 1958 (George W Hodges, Swamp Angel): "When both 'possum and potatoes were well done, they were ready for the table." I doubt any typical BrE text would talk about possums, so it's probably not British-only. Equinox ◑ 19:15, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- Only rare people think that well done means overcooked. Shouldn't we combine all these senses into one line?
- A bgc search for "well done" +cook brings up dozens of usages from around the world.
- I suggest we combine senses 2, 3 & 4 into one line reading (cooking) Thoroughly cooked; cooked through to the centre center, sometimes to the point of overcooking. Dbfirs 16:03, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- I would like to see if there is any clear support for the two challenged senses, such as what Equinox has found. If not, then we can consider combining them, though I would challenge any definition that included "overcooked" without support. In the end any element of a definition should be supportable by three quotes, IMO. The best way to minimize the need for attestation is to generalize the sense, eliminating unsupportable elements altogether. When I express this demanding standard, I wonder how we will ever get enough contributors to attest to what ought to be attested to. DCDuring TALK 18:29, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think they are separate senses. Perhaps the overcooking overtone is just an example of meiosis?
- 1829 (Louis Eustache Ude, The French Cook): "White beans must be well done before you dress them ..." and "Let the onions be well done."
- 1902 (Lida Seely, Mrs. Seely's cook book: a manual of French and American cookery ...): "Boil rice, well done, in a rice boiler"
- Will these suffice? I would have suggested a dated tag for non-meat cooking, but the expression is still in use where I live. Dbfirs 19:57, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- They look good to me. If the application to food in general is, say, {{dated|_|now mostly|_|UK}} for the non-meat usage, then that is what would warrant an additional sense, I think.
- I had a touch of meiosis once, but a quick visit to the field surgery and I was right as rain. DCDuring TALK 20:33, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- I would like to see if there is any clear support for the two challenged senses, such as what Equinox has found. If not, then we can consider combining them, though I would challenge any definition that included "overcooked" without support. In the end any element of a definition should be supportable by three quotes, IMO. The best way to minimize the need for attestation is to generalize the sense, eliminating unsupportable elements altogether. When I express this demanding standard, I wonder how we will ever get enough contributors to attest to what ought to be attested to. DCDuring TALK 18:29, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
RFV failed, senses removed/merged/restructured/whatnot. Please take a look. (Note: I didn't add any sort of "dated" or "UK" tags, because a b.g.c. search turned up recent uses in reference to vegetables by American and Australian authors. I suspect that the reason DCDuring and I weren't previously familiar with that usage is that it's less culturally salient: no restaurant will ever ask you if you want your potatoes rare, medium, or well done. Recipes, however, are perfectly happy calling for vegetables to be "well done" in the rare instances where it matters.) —RuakhTALK 15:09, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
lexicalized hyphen
[edit]The CambridgeGEL, page 1762, reads
Prescriptive manuals attach considerable weight to this distinction as it applies to well + past participle; there are, however, some combinations where the hyphens are lexical, occurring in predicative as well as attributive function: The steak was well-done ; They look very well-heeled.